Friday, November 28, 2008

Those Who Do Not Learn From History ...

I

Modi made some valid points.


1. This looks like an international issue. They have aimed at foreigners. They are extremely well trained. Let me add, this is not a bunch of home grown misguided violent youth, like in the 2001 Parliament attack, this is worse than both a war and a terror attack.

2. 'This looks like war. Again I would say this is a far worse attack than the Kargil infiltration. And yes all these cases do indicate our various governements total failure to keep us safe.

One small point. Modi has announced one Crore for ATS Chief Karkare, called him a martyr!! Just recently wasn't he heard lambasting him for accusing a Sadhwi in Malegaon blasts? Why this sudden changeofheart!

II

The truth behind Blame Games
.

Some bloggers are talking about how well BJP would have handled this situation, or how they would have never allowed it to happen!
Modi and Advani were very much in power during the Kargil War, Parliament Attack and IC-814 hijacking ... so don't, at this emotional and stressful time be led to believe, that there are any short cuts to a safer India.
Let us never get fooled into believing that Modi or Advani or Raj Thakre can be our saviours.

III

The Only Thing That Will Work.


Remember when two French journalists were kidnapped by a small terrorists group (Al Jazeera) in Aug 2004? They wanted Muslim girls in France to be allowed to wear scarves to schools in return of the journalists' lives?
Did the French government think of votes and give in to the demands? NO. The French government said "Go hop." The kidnappers released the journalists after four months. Why didn't we show such courage after IC814 hijack?
We sowed the seeds for this during the IC814 negotiations, and are still reaping the rewards :(


We need to give a clear and strong message to all terrorists, simply, that we do not give in.


IV

And, finally, what is not needed.

Divisive politics.
Fighting for identity votes. If leaders had made sure that the intelligence sources, ATS (was the ATS Chief killed so unexpectedly because he had become a threat?) and the Security Forces are allowed to work without political intervention.
Don't you think we were so divided any fool could see this as an opportunity? What else have we bloggers been ranting about?

And are we forgetting (again?) THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT IT.

Raj Thakre has disappeared ever since his Z security has been demoted to Y security. Not even this could bring him out.
Modi walks around flanked by security personel, while the young soldiers and thousands of us, as much at risk, have no security.
Advani
has been told categorically by Shobha De, echoing every Mumbaikar's thoughts, to stay away.
Man Mohan Singh
should borrow Obama's speech writer.
(Maybe I should edit this bit - I am realising I prefer a practical worker any day to a charismatic leader. I would rather live, than be entertained.)

Where are Lalu, Rahul, Omar Abdullah, Sonia .... and their respective speech writers?

There's a void here. We need inspiring leadership. And if somebody good does not turn up, some crook with ulterior motives (votes) will.

71 comments:

Miaow!!! said...

Amen to all of that!!!

Ajit said...

beautiful and inspiring.....

Indian Home Maker said...

Miaow Amen :)

Ajit Did you like the French government's way of handling the solution? I was impressed!

manju said...

We certainly are in a horrible situation. And I completely agree with you that we must not be seen to be weak.

For this, we must all support the govt. in any action that needs to be taken. At the time of the skijacking you mention in you post, I distinctly remember noisy demonstrators camping outside the Prime Minister's house-with the active support of the opposition- demanding that the terrorists' demands be met.

Re: our leaders. I am increasingly becoming a pessimist about this. It is true- we get the leaders we deserve.:(

Indian Home Maker said...

manju - They are all the same when it comes to handling terrorism. Always finger pointing and invariably weak.

I agree 'we must all support the govt. in any action that needs to be taken'. For our own sake!!

Wasn't the French governments reaction courageous and sensible? They had also defied America and withdrawn their troops from Iraq .. they have a mind of their own.

Pinku said...

been wondering where the Marathi manoos's superhero been hiding since this crisis erupted.

as for us being decisive, we as a people are not why blame the government?

We keep swaying with every new piece of information and dont even pause to wonder about its truth quotient.

Indian Home Maker said...

Pinku it's easy to be brave with full security (at tax payer's cost)- they care for nobody but heir votes and their coffers.
I like M MSingh but he has failed as a motivator at a time like this! Where are they all?

Z@ki-R said...

MMS's body language did not seem motivating enough. BUT it is time to help him, his home minister at this time of crisis by those who think they are more fit for the job. I would love to believe, our administration learns lessons (which we need too many times to be recited and at too much cost) and ensures the nation that such crime will not happen again. It is time for our administration to show the accountability.

Vidooshak said...

You have made some amazing points. Points that hours of 24 hour TV have not been able to see. In their race for sensationalism, they overlook the obvious, the manipulative and the historical. This post chronicles it all so well. And yes, just because foreigners are being killed, this is not an attack on Raj Thackrey's Mumbai. Lucky him!

Monika said...

inspiring and leadership are opposite terms as far as india is concerned... each one of them is so hollow...

and modi i wanted to kill him this morning when he was speaking all abt just the blame game and nothing else...

and u know what i have strong feeling and i was telling hubby and sis also yesterday that I think BJP and shove sena etc have just quickly used this opp to wipe out HK... after all who knows who fired the bullet which hit him... and knowing their past record its abs possible...

and I am with u on this 200% for once we need to stand up strongly what french did was commendable... but correct me if i am wrong the govt did so no at any negotiations this time right?

trying2beperfectmom said...

Good points. Terrorism should be tackled with iron hand. As long as we have leaders who have their personal gain as top priority, nothing much can be done.
Regarding the french government, would you still say that their approach is totally right if the reporters had been killed?

Mumbai Diva said...

Amazingly insightful. And I completely agree. Not a squeak from the so called "leaders". Sonia, Rahul, or any of the others. Raj Thakre has all but dissappeared. Deshmukh came in once, insipidly, and his speech did nothing to raise morales or hopes of a devastated city.

Monika,Ansh said...

Yes u r right, inspiring leadership is hat we need today when many of us are feeling in the dumps!
I have friends working for the Taj & I am happy that my friends are safe but there are so many firneds of friends who are no more.

Bones said...

Indian politicians are all the same-the only thing they know how to do well is fingerpointing...
I too like Manmohan Singh but just as an economist...He has no backbone and as you so rightly said, he doesn't inspire...
I hope the superhero of the Marathi manoos is trapped inside one of the hotels...
As for Rahul, I'm sure he must have airdashed to Italy...

Trailblazer said...

[...]The media is more irresponsible than we can even imagine it to be
Another eye-opener is the role of the media. The same pseudo-secular reporters "terrorizing" people across the country with their spot commentary and "latest updates". [...]

Ritu said...

Manmohan Singh is a practical worker, not a charismatic leader. History is replete with examples of how charimatic leaders "F" us up. I think (I hope) he will take decisive action and not bow down at the altar of votes

Ajit said...

yeah, I liked the way the french handled it....
hard and stern....
and I also to a certain extent like the way the israeli guys approach such a situation.... but the only problem is that they go overboard at times.... well.. on most occasion :)
It is a bit of a double tragedy for me....
Mumbai under fire and chennai under heavy rains..... :)

Usha Pisharody said...

Darn Right!

And darn right again! all of those point! Underscore them in red ink!!

My son and I were just discussing how the "Manoos", with a capital M is missing from the scene!

Just thinking of what must be playing out in the minds of those whose life is at stake there, those whose have been, and the families of all those who lost them, is wearying... so how much more would the anguish be...

all because of our earthworm like vision of divisiveness and parochial views...

will that change?

myheadtrip said...

Do you really think speechifying (sorry to use an Inglish form...but that describes the thought better) will help in any way? I personally think, each one of us is motivated enough to abhor these terrorists; don't need some politician to do so. I agree with the rest of the stuff though. I would rather these politicians stay away from the area hogging for the limelight. Besides just a small correction on your small point - Modi announced the money to all Mumbai martyrs not just Karkare. (I personally don't like his politics but that is an error.) Sorry to point it out but I could not just let it go either.

Mampi said...

We need to shout out from rooftops that we dont need these politicians to tell us what we already know, for they tell us by saffronising or greenising or whitising the whole situation.
Loved your post. And very valid points you have talked about.

Indian Home Maker said...

@ Z@kir-R You are right!! If good oratory was all we needed than we should get actors not leaders.
We all must stand by him, and support him.

@ Vidooshak I hope people keep their sanity ... I can see people shouting "Bharat Mata ki Jai" outside Nariman House, right now :) So even after all this, the spirit is still high. Hats off to the people of India ... but now they should not go out of control!

@ Monika He said the expected stuff, blamed M M Singh for his poor err ... speech.
Yes, I just don't understand ATS Chief dying like this ... agree with you. And everybody I spoke to agrees. It seems he had received email threats.

@ trying2beperfectmom At the time of those threats the French government had no idea if the journalists would be left alive. Why is it that the army is made to die to catch terrorists and then we release terrorists they died to catch?
Apart from giving in to their wishes, they did everything they could to free the journalists. The message was "No you don't!"
After that one time they have faced no such attacks or kidnappings.
Who has lost lives, we or them?

Mumbai Diva - I saw a Congress spokesperson later, he spoke well. Rest of them should be speaking to the people from TV - not going there!

Indian Home Maker said...

Monika.Ansh yes it really matters, people need reassurance. I am surprised that the Government can't see this!
... this can be a vote-politicking opportunity! Oh yes, Modi did see this and he did blame M M Singh for his poor speech! He could not say, poor crisis management so he ranted about PM's poor speech!!!

Shilpa said...

Truly baffling that all the politicians have gone into hiding. It was curious to see Modi rushing to Mumbai and saying things he said. I was screaming at the screen when he was speaking - why are we giving him so much 'bhav', his Godhra definitely contributed to the mess that we are in today.
The French Govt's handling was amazing. So also was the way Mossad agents and Isralei authorities handled the 1976 hijacking of Air France plane that was taken to uganda. No amount of negotiation should be done with these barbarians.
Really IHM, I have been trying to wrap my hands around this but its just unexplicable.

Indian Home Maker said...

@ Bones But on second thoughts I think at least MM Singh made sure the operation goes smoothly, he made no efforts to use this opportunity for votes. I saw Modi, blaming MM Singh for his poor sppech, with shots in the back ground!
Won't you rather rather have action, than words?

Kislay said...

India needs to have a no-negotiations policy , like the Israelis and the Americans do . And that policy cannot be the sole responsibility of the incumbent leaders, but all the national ones. The Congress clearly has failed miserably . And you say that the BJP cannot be the saviours ? So who can ? The third front headed by Mayawati ? I would actually like to know of options do we have .

Indian Home Maker said...

Kislay - In fact, Congress is handling the crisis very well! The PM is not wasting his time in making speeches, he is already in touch with ISI (the last news), he is letting the fauj do their job (it must be a change for our soldiers!)
I can see from the SMS-es I am receiving that the spirit of the people is high - without any speeches or knee jerk reactions motivated by vote politicking, by the government.

pink dogwood said...

I like how you lay it out as it is.

Indian Home Maker said...

trailblazer But at the same time they did bring the whole thing live to us, I was glued, Am glued ... yes they egt carried away, but I forgive them this time, trailblazer :)
We would have never realised how important it is for us to wake up to our own safety if had not seen some of these gory sights.
Yeah they can be insensitive, too senssationalist ... that's also true :(

1conoclast said...

HOW? HOW do you always manage to steal the words out of my mouth???

Indian Home Maker said...

Ritu These are wise words. And I agree completely. Maybe I should edit the post - I am realising I prefer a practical worker any day to a charismatic leader.
I would rather live than be entertained :)

Indian Home Maker said...

@ Ajit And the French are a peaceful people. And they gave the Statue of Liberty to America, but they have values, principles which they did not sell for votes.
Chennai under rain..? I have been watching only this...

Usha Pisharody And now we have also been receiving these SMS, which tell all about what people are thinking.

Indian Home Maker said...

myheadtrip You are right, now I agree with what Ritu said above, "Manmohan Singh is a practical worker, not a charismatic leader. History is replete with examples of how charimatic leaders "F" us up. I think (I hope) he will take decisive action and not bow down at the altar of votes"

Modi surprised me with his change of heart ... even if he admired others along with him - he hated him till last week.

D said...

I don't think I want to take sides just now between Modi and Manmohan. But yes, I could do with a leader who doesn't end up making a fool of himself in the face of such a crisis.

Indian Home Maker said...

mampi thanks, we don't like saffron-ising, green-ising etc, we prefer everything in Black and white :)

Shilpa @ "I was screaming at the screen when he was speaking "
Me too.
And all this while gun shots could be heard behind him!

Pink dogwood Thanks :)I am watching people wanting to touch the NSG Commandos and clapping for them, they have just cleared Nariman House. Oh it is a moving moment :)

Indian Home Maker said...

1conoclast :) We all need to agree on this today!

Indian Home Maker said...

@D Maybe I should edit the post - I am realising I prefer a practical worker any day to a charismatic leader.
I would rather live than be entertained :)

Iya said...

you know IHM i have gone through all sorts of feelings possible in the span of the 48 hours..from anger to being scared to feeling frustrated to utterly hopeless...and it is still going on...

Z@ki-R said...

Yes, more from glamour, we need actions. And I think MMS did a reasonable job. He summoned ISI head in our country and forcing him to help Indian agencie. It is not seeking isi's help, it's making them to help. We need work, rather than 'strong man', 'iron man' speechs [ may be USA prez elect has gr8 oratory skill and probly same administrative skills, but why should we expect everyone to be alike]. We need all views, we need mms, advani, karats..everyone should fight together. Let’s forget raj n his clan now. But what angers me, we r a country of poor learners. Why it needs a hundred lives to learn a lesson? am angered b-coz modi anouncing 1 crore for slain ats chief. isn't it vulgar? we can only pay our tributes to the 'sahids', if we, as a nation, learn some lesson and guarantee the safety of our cities, towns and villages.
AND last but not least, we should stop blaming govt from comfort of airconditioners of out house/office - after all, govt is a mere reflection of the people it's governing.
MY HUMBLE SALUTE TO OUR SECURITY PERSONALS ( NSG, NAVY, ARMY, POLICE) SOME OF WHOME ARE NO MORE ALIVE TO SEE SIGH OF RELIEF.

Charakan said...

Great Post.Terrorism have to be fought in many fronts.Increasing our National security is one.For this the citizens should be ready for time consuming body, vehicle and baggage checks at Airports Railway stations,Hotels,Malls, Major Roads etc.They also should be well prepared in security drills,emergency evacuation plans etc.
We also should not have double standards in dealing with terrorists and communal riots. Security agencies should not be used for settling political or communal scores.
Ideological fight against terrorism is most important.Religious leaders especially from the Muslim community should come in fore front to fight this battle.They should not try to explain terrorism as an offshoot of real or perceived injustice. Division in the society between major communities should be bridged. Those living in residential colonies should encourage families of all communities to reside there.
Sry this is long Will stop 3 Cheers to our security personnel

sunder said...

we will never learn from history...things will be the same again in another one month..we are all divided on so many factors...

This cud have happenned even if BJP was in power..all said and done, this govt is weak as far as controlling the terror is concerned..

Does it matter said...

IHM,

It is shocking to hear you suggest that the ATS Chief was done away with because of the Sadhvi investigation? "(was the ATS Chief killed so unexpectedly because he had become a threat?)"

Love the congress, fine. Ignore the bad (inexistent) governance, okay. Forget that all that Vilasrao and his crooks have done all these years is make money from the real estate and other lobbies, okay again. And though, it was one of the current NCP ministers who is rumoured to have got Dawood out of the country so that his own links do not get investigated - okay again.

But please do not make these completely unsubstantiated claims. We do not need more rumours than already are!

What we do need is good governance - though that is fast becoming a dirty word in yr lexicon, I suspect, because the Congress does not seem to have it.

1conoclast said...

IHM, Ritu, Zakir,

Can't agree more with you on Dr. MMS.

Indian Home Maker said...

DIM LOL :)
About the niggling little doubt, I am not the only one ... this country is not a Democracy for nothing. We don't trust the people we don't vote for either :)
They have not prooved themselves above these things, have they?

Will continue later - got to go to the gym, have been glued to the TV these past how many ... hours.

Does it matter said...

IHM,

Yes. I also suppose if the Maharashtra Govt had done its job the last few years as diligently as you do to the gym, we might not have seen this situation arise in Bombay today.

Anyway, our famous 'resilience' will kick in soon, and we will forget the dead soon (since none of our near and dear ones got affected), the politicians will be happy we are not making them accountable, and life will go on as usual again.

And yes, ManMohan and Sonia and Rahul-baba will hopefully get better speechwriters as well :)

For all his faults, George W Bush with his 'with us or against us' speech, and his completely stupid Afghanistan & Iraq attacks, has still ensured there has not been a repeat attack on his people.

Man Mohan need not bother too much, we are anyway a billion plus. A few hundreds this way or that does not matter. And luckily this time so many of them were foreigners - it does not affect the votes either.

Advani ofcourse must be happy & relieved - these attacks could not have happened at a better time if any, before the elections and when the heat of Malegaon was getting a little unbearable.

Hah, the irony of the situation: Muslim Terrorists (politically incorrect term, I know, I know) helping the BJP !!!

Kislay said...

Why is the term "muslim terrorists" politically incorrect ? If its a spade, call it one . Is it our fault that in India , most of terrorist attacks have been perpetrated by people who are muslims, and that their actions have been directly or indirectly inspired by their faith . It is there, it is staring you in the face, and we still care about being politically correct .

Indian Home Maker said...

Kislay I never thought the term was 'politically incorrect' or 'correct'.

... IF it is considered incorrect it could be because there is a risk of giving Hindu Fundamentalists an indirect opportunity/excuse to create another Gujarat of March 2002, or to follow the example and start retaliatory terrorism. Such terms can divide I guess ... and create stereotypes.

Generalizations can be dangerous.
Such terms can make us think all aam aadmi muslims we see around us are Islamic Fundamentalists? I will not like to be blamed for Modi's crimes, why should I allow any Indian citizen, Muslim or not, to pay for some foreign terrorists' crimes ?

You want to know what a muslim woman thought after these attacks? Read here, http://www.anniezaidi.com/2008/11/incomprehensible-and-uncomprehending.html

Anonymous said...

(Also, may I just add about the media coverage: I'm not familiar with ALL of your channels/news outlets. Is CNN-IBN and NDTV the top of the line in India? Do they have agendas? Like here in the USA, we have, say, FoxNews (FauxNews) which is, basically, the propaganda arm of the Republican/Conservative Party -- The likes of which are comparable to Goebbels or Pravda, let me tell you!! And then, we have MSNBC and CNN which, to their credit, try and tell the truth and not put so much "spin", like Faux. However, we have numerous discussion shows on daily, where all viewpoints are discussed at nauseum. Do your national channels allow for this?? I can see what you mean when some of you speak about how the channels "sensationalized" the coverage, but I must say -- At points it seemed they were ducking stray bullets and yet, they never missed a beat! I was somewhat proud of them, especially the young females (Not to be sexist.)
I wouldn't pattern myself after the French, however. lol.

Indian Home Maker said...

Anonymous Welcome :)
Most Indian media is anti- ruling government because that is what the people love to watch, the agenda is TRPs, i.e. to get as many people to watch as possible. So sensationalism.

NDTV24X7 is amongst the most respected by those who are against violence and divides, the Fundamentalist Right Wingers (BJP, Modi, Advani)hate them! This channel also created a wave of public sympathy and support in some neglected and mishandled murder cases, and got the victims justice.

I think they were brave, though at times insensitive when they asked probing questions.

"we have numerous discussion shows on daily, where all viewpoints are discussed at nauseum" Yes we do ...

You won't do what the French did? But then how does one bring this terrorists situation in control?

Anonymous said...

Thank you for the "Welcome," 'Indian Home Maker'!! I'm Larry (Boston) and I've really enjoyed reading your blog. I came to it by watching the live streams of CNN-IBN and HDTV. (I think!!! lol) Thanks for explaining, it helps a lot. As for the "French" comment, it's an inside joke, I guess. We here in the states have a long running (150 years or so.) love/hate relationship with France! They saved us during the Revolutionary War (Blockaded the British) and they never let us forget it!! And we never let them forget WWII. lol. I've been there a few times, and personally I love'em!!!!!

Charakan said...

IHM,
Thank you for the link to Anniezaidi's post.
Read this post from a Pakistani site.
http://pakistaniat.com/2008/11/28/mumbaikar-mumbai-terror-pakistani-view/

Anonymous said...

(Make that about 230 years!!! lol.)

The Soul of Alec Smart said...

IHM, all good points except the Frech government one. Or maybe I got it wrong. How does it work? The government says "Go scoot" to the terrorists and so also to the victim and his/her family? And what exactly should the Indian government have done? Said "Go kill those people on the plane". I do remember that they tried everything else.. and the drama took 13 days to play out. And if all those people had just been shot dead, that would have made sense to all of us? Let's not suggest solutions on things we are not qualified to take a judgment on, and accept it that way. One of the problems with our country is that most of the times, each layman takes an authoritative stance on things and suggests recommendations on national issues believing he/she knows something/anything about what such decision-making actually entails. We are all opinion-makers. Maybe, that's something we should learn about from the French.

The Soul of Alec Smart said...

Sorry for the long comment.

Kislay said...

I don't think using the term "islamic terrorists" amounts to generalization . If I say " all muslims are terrorists" , then that is generalization, and of the worst kind . And as far as the blogosphere is concerned , I bet almost all the posts out there condemn what happened . I am not saying that its a farce . But does that change the fact ? And as far as Hindu extremism is concerned, I know it is not right, but why the hell is it there in the first place ? Enough said, you have your views and I have mine . Let's just say I am on the crossroads now , and don't know which way to turn , left or right .

Indian Home Maker said...

@ Kislay
//I don't think using the term "islamic terrorists" amounts to generalization .//
I guess it doesn't, you asked so I thought about it and told you why it could be considered "politically incorrect" and gave you my reasons. I have heard some other right wing blogs say it is considered impolite, I can only assume for the same reason.

//If I say " all muslims are terrorists" , then that is generalization, and of the worst kind . And as far as the blogosphere is concerned , I bet almost all the posts out there condemn what happened .//
Yes Kislay I agree.

// I am not saying that its a farce . But does that change the fact ?//
Kislay - Indians from all religions have died. If somebody had a motive here - it has to be someone who benefits from this? I don't feel good discussing this - I am also unhappy about the way the ATS Chief died ... just my thoughts, strangest, unexplainable things happen, Indian politics is filthy. Many of friends called and said they are proud of Karlekar's wife for refusing Modi's One Crore ...


//And as far as Hindu extremism is concerned, I know it is not right, but why the hell is it there in the first place ?//
You tell me why is there Kislay? I think all such extremisms are there because there is angry, misguided, unhappy youth ready to die at the behest of some cowards who walk /live in safety themselves.... and they use excuses like "retaliation" and create a feeling of victim-hood amongst youth. Ok my next post on how did it all begin and grow in front of my (and everybody who was observing) own eyes from 1992-93 onwards.

//Enough said, you have your views and I have mine . Let's just say I am on the crossroads now , and don't know which way to turn , left or right .//
Extremes can be dangerous. I hope you read the link I gave you, it is for every youth of every religion who is full of anger. Strong emotions can create - a Gandhi or a Hitler. I hope you choose Gandhi. You guys are the hope of this country, it troubles me to see you at 'crossroads' - all the best, keep visiting, IHM

Indian Home Maker said...

Soulf of Alec Smart, Krishna Araadhi - will answer your comments, maybe in my next post, maybe right here. Just a little busy at he moment.

Mavin said...

Hi IHM,

Just a few points

IC-814 hijacking. The government had the choice of

1. Not negotiating and letting the 200 odd passengers be killed

2. Attacked IC-814 at Kandahar but doing that in a hostile country and after overflying another hostile country was not practical, and

3. Negotiate and secure release of hostages.

This was also preceeded by demonstrations by the affected families and political outfits that we need to secure the lives of the hostages.

I think that was the most difficult decision for any one to take. But, ask each one of the survivors and they will say that it was a right decision.

I hope you did not mean to say that we should not have negotiated and allowed the hostages to be killed.....

In the French case, they were four journalists and France is a far more homogenous country than ours. We would always have had an emotional response.

Damned if they negotiated and damned if they did'nt.

Indian Home Maker said...

Mavin I agree it was a 'damned if they do, damned if they don't ' kind of a situation. But do you remember the Commandos, trained to handle such situations, had reached the Airport, but the politicians refuse to let them act. Why HAVE an army if we wish to act with such cowardice? What kind of message did that give to the terrorists? And what about all the Army guys who are dying all the time to catch these terrorists which were released? Their loss of lives and sacrifice is totally forgotten!

I do wish they had, then all these thousands who have died after that might have lived.
Negotiating with terrorists should be NOT be considered an option.

We do need to find examples from the same sources our founding forefathers used to create our tough, all surviving Constitution.

Did you go through the links? I think there were two French and one Italian journalists ... I will check again.

Indian Home Maker said...

Soul of Alec Smart - Read my reply to Mavin. Same points, we had the commandos waiting to take action. They should have been allowed to do their work, they are qualified to do these jobs, we have lost so many lives after that, we have become a soft-on-terror nation.

Also consider the much larger number of soldiers and civilians who have died catching these guys and after they were released through more of their terrorist activities.

Yes it was a tough decision,there was not even any guarantee that the passengers will be released alive even after all their demands were met ... just thinking that a tough stand works ... in the long run. And our commandos were all right there ...
Tell me what else is the solution if not a tough stand? It worked very well for the French.

The Soul of Alec Smart said...

IHM, all your points might be valid. But I might just want to understand it a little further. Our commandos were delayed because of the abysmal response time, but once they reached the sites, they were given full control of the situation afaik. No reports have been released suggesting that the NSG felt restrained in its operations because of government interference. Infact, that's just one good thing they did. Once they saw what mess had already been created, they kept their gob shut. Now for the IC-1814 attack, I think the government did what was the most viable solution at the time. All of us, including our ministers and amry officials, are well aware that the terrorists being released were caught after some of our brave soldiers lost their lives. But that one person later can be traded for lives of hundreds of innocents aboard a plane, which makes it very difficult to act tough. Trust me, if our govt. had done that, we would be sitting here criticizing our trigger-happy leaders! All I am saying is that, even to my layman self, it seems like no choices were easy. To compare it to the French case is unfair because of - though it may sound cruel - the sheer number of lives involved. There are no guarantees in either situation but then they played their safest bet!

Kislay said...

The ideological roots of the right wing can be traced to the pre-independence era . It was not just 92-93 , which was an incredibly stupid mistake . One look at the history of India is enough to know the why . And as far Gandhiji is concerned , his methods cannot be used to fight a war .

Indian Home Maker said...

@Kislay
1. Those roots have rotted with greed for power. DO read my post (the last part of this conversation) 'An unedited online chat' - this friend's family was actively involved in RSS. And from what I knwo some violence was always a psrt of their ideology, wasn't it?

2. Gandhi did win a war, and was wise enough to have policies that prevented the situations that cause wars. If it did come to a war with an enemy, not your own brohers and sisters, he would have supported it, very unhappily but courageouly. RSS, VHP, BD< BJP, Raj Thakre are BULLIES. Killing helpless people is cowardly. Courage is standing up for what you believe.
2. Hitler won wars, but do we want to win such wars? Today I hear people say Hitler, Modu, Lalu (on Philip's blog) were great administrators, so it is ok if they halted progress or caused deaths through neglect or brain washing. Even today many Germans are racist, but at least they dare not brag about it. In India hating our fellow countrymen - openly has become acceptable. How can hate and prejudice become acceptable? We will really have civil wars, and be attacked many more times if we don't very firmly decide to UNITE and accept no divisive leaders.

About 92-93 riots. Mumbai had NO history of hindu-muslim riots and Gujrat till then was a peaceful state, one heard rioting in Meerut, not in Gujrat (except very small one if at all) I can tell
- how come now UP and Bihar have Hindu Muslim riots? Because the leadership there wants it this way. Who our politicians are makes a lot of difference.
I will write about my train journey - unforgettable- on that dec night, when everybody thought that route was 'anyway, a safe route'. And please do check this, Hindu Muslims riots of this large scale started after and because of BJP. YOU can't overlook this! We have seen this happen. More on this ... have to go.

Does it matter said...

IHM,
Mumbai had NO history of hindu-muslim riots and Gujrat till then was a peaceful state!!

IS a Hilarious statement. Gujarat had riots for years, and it has always been communally charged.

Madhavsinh Solanki of the Congress had his pet K-H-A-M theory where M stands for a specific community, no prizes for guessing which.

There were innumerable riots, all trigerred by small instances.

If you leave out the post Godhra riots (or massacre, depending on the pt of view), the situation now is probably the same or even a little better than what it was during Congress Rule.

Oh, and btw, the Congress never demolished even a single illegally constructed temple ever in Gujarat - FYI..

1conoclast said...

Mavin/IHM,

I bring up Kandahar purely as an intelligence failure. I don't disagree with the methods employed there. It's always nice to save whatever lives you can.

Kislay,

Can Buddha's methods be used to fight a war? He conquered a super-violent Ashoka & an angulimaal, didn't he?

Rest IHM has said.

The right-wing as we know it today is because of an idiot called savarkar. He started it all. Inconsequential freedom fighter, failed human being. I dunno if you wanna go further into history than that.

IHM,

Gujarat had Ahmedabad in 1969, planned, provoked & executed entirely by the rss, the birth-mother of the bjp.

I'd like to make a point here that I made elsewhere. Will you please go thru this link?

Mavin said...

A lot of doubt on what you say.

That aircraft touched only Amritsar in India that too after being refused permission in Pakistan only to land at Amritsar and take off immediately for Dubai.

I suggest that you go over the details of the hijack drama. The NSG never reached Amritsar airport.
They claimed that they were stuck in traffic.

The plane even took off without refuelling at Amritsar.

If you check all facts and go through the chronology of events, then the Government had not much choice.

It is almost nine years since that episode.

Let us be fair.....

Kislay said...

@IHM
I respect your sentiments . I bow to your beautiful spirit . But , why does everyone quote Gandhiji ? Why not quote Ramayana and Mahabharata ? I consider it as history , and those who cannot accept that , must admit that it is an integral part of Hindu culture . They do not preach violence , but they do call for the destruction of evil through any means necessary when dharma is under attack . And before any one screams "right-winger" , I must make clear that dharma here is the peaceful way of life , the basic principles of this Indian society . I know riots happened , and I know why . But what about now . What do the cold hard facts state . The enemy within , and out , must be crushed . I hear about people clamouring for peaceful dialogues with Pakistan . What peace are they talking about when the other party is a back-stabbing loose cannon .

And when you talk about riots , the Indian history is riddled with it . And I don't have to tell you that it was the BJP behind them all . For me , Congress and BJP are the same when it comes to riots . I shall never forgive the Congress for the 1984 Sikh riots .

@1conoclast
Buddha's methods indeed . Please , go ahead and try and convince those who kill in the name of God , to those who are willing to lay their lives for Him , to follow Buddha's path . Buddha's teachings can be understood by those are sane , humane and have a modicum of intelligence . I do NOT think that those kill "non-believers" have any of those . What we need now is a Chanakya , who will talk and act real politik .

Charakan said...

About IC 814 hijacking.The whole episode lasted 6 days.Amritsar authorities tried to delay the refuelling but a passenger was shot dead.So pilot as instructed by hijackers took off to Lahore.Were the commandos ready to act?Conflicting reports,but anyway Govt was not ready to take a decision so fast.
The success of the hijacking gave a tremendous boost to the Islamic terror groups.Moulana Masud Azhar,the released prisoner is considered as Pakistan's most important Interntational Jihadist.He is a great organiser and speaker,who recruited a large number of youth from Madrasas to Jihadi movement.He is linked to many terror plots in Kashmir,Somalia,Chechnya and Afganistan.The other released prisoner Omar Sheik was behind the kidnapping and execution of Daniel Pearl.May be even their hands may be there behind Mumbai attacks.In hindsight more lives would have been saved if we did not negotiate.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Mavin and Soul of Alec Smart The Commandos were taken to Kandahar, we saw them on the TV.
I guess I understand that they had to save as many people as possible, at the time there was a lot of criticism about there not being allowed to get the victims out ... what do you think on 40-O? And our right to vote for None of the above? Do you think it is too much to expect to be allowed to choose who should not be fighting elections? Did you receive an SMS about it? I heard on CNN IBN, but I haven't received this one!

1conoclast said...

Mavin,

You didn't address my earlier point?

Kislay,

Why Gandhiji? Because, in order to become a more civilized society, we must try newer things. We've been at war for as long as we can remember. And war has never led to peace. As Animesh pointed out, if Israel's strategy was so successful, why would they constantly be under attack? What has war achieved in Afghanistan? Peace? No.

So our history that you would rather refer to was fit for the Iron Age it's said to have taken place in.

And no one is going to call you a right-winger. We know you aren't one. If you'd brought up the Abrahamic eye for an eye rule, you wouldn't have been branded Mossad either!! Or if you'd have siad that mischief makers in the land must be punished according to the law of the land (or something to that effect), you wouldn't have been branded jihadi either!

I think you'll find that some people have suggested that it was impossible for Congress cadres to collect & run riot in such a well coordinated fashion in such a short time. The finger of suspicion points to the involvement of a quasi-militant organization. Like the rss. Look it up.

I suppose angulimaal was sane. As were all the other pro-violence people who converted to his ahimsic lifestyle.

Kislay said...

// Why Gandhiji? Because, in order to become a more civilized society, we must try newer things. We've been at war for as long as we can remember. And war has never led to peace. As Animesh pointed out, if Israel's strategy was so successful, why would they constantly be under attack? What has war achieved in Afghanistan? Peace? No.

So our history that you would rather refer to was fit for the Iron Age it's said to have taken place in. //

That is where you are wrong . In one stroke you have belittled the teachings of Ramayana and Mahabharata . And I would rather follow them , any given day , because it encompasses everything . And I have been blessed with a grandfather who is there to teach me as well .

//And no one is going to call you a right-winger. We know you aren't one. If you'd brought up the Abrahamic eye for an eye rule, you wouldn't have been branded Mossad either!! Or if you'd have siad that mischief makers in the land must be punished according to the law of the land (or something to that effect), you wouldn't have been branded jihadi either!//

As if I give a damn . I am what I am . But yes, if anyone called me a left-winger or a communist , that would make me mad . My bone of contention is not just with the Congress , it is more with them .

// I think you'll find that some people have suggested that it was impossible for Congress cadres to collect & run riot in such a well coordinated fashion in such a short time. The finger of suspicion points to the involvement of a quasi-militant organization. Like the rss. Look it up. //

That is something entirely new . How different are you from the very jihadis , when you claim that even 1984 was the doing of RSS ? You are an extremist when it comes to hating BJP/RSS . I

// I suppose angulimaal was sane. As were all the other pro-violence people who converted to his ahimsic lifestyle.//

Absolutely . He was blessed that he could change his ways .

1conoclast said...

Kislay...

You're talking like a child now. No offence meant but who would imply that a serial killer like angulimaal was sane? And aren't you contradicting yourself when you admit that it is possible to change one's ways? So Buddha/Gandhi do hold true then?

Being called a left-winger making you mad is as bad as me being extremist in my derision of the sangh isn't it?

Please go to countercurrents.org. You will find that the rss cadre point has been raised not by those you call jihadi but eminent non-Muslim lecturers/journos etc.

Am I being extremist or are you for not wanting to explore the possibility that there is truth in what is being implied?

Think about it.