Wednesday, January 14, 2009

Why Indians Don't Hate Hitler.

[Another one from those 104 drafts :)]

Hitler was never unpopular in India because he was considered the 'Enemy's Enemy', i.e. Britain's enemy. School principals or strict teachers in India are nick named Hitler all the time. All we knew during our school years was that he was a dictator.We were ignorant. Unlike now, Indian schools did not teach European History we never learnt much about exactly what Hitler did. Hitler's Cross Restaurant in Mumbai is an example of our ignorance, not malice.


CBSE syllabus has changed recently and WW I and WW II have been included. Thank God! Why do I care whether we study Hitler or not? Because the biggest benefit of studying history is to learn from the mistakes our ancestors made.
Here's a video that shows what the allied soldiers found when they reached one of the concentration camps. Holocast crimes were taken very seriously and even today you will not find any statues of Hitler anywhere there. India could learn this lesson from the West, human life and human rights are taken seriously over there.
(Graphic images. User discretion is advised.)



Do you know, there are many in India today who quote Gandhi one moment and next talk about Hitler as a role model, Raj Thakre and Modi are two such people. It's sad because the guy they worship would have sent them to holocaust too. Hitler was strongly racial, he was against Romanians, Blacks, Slovakians, Gypsies, (we come in this category, for Hitler, no matter how much 'fair & lovely' we apply), homosexuals, physically and mentally disabled and anyone who opposed him.
I also doubt the veracity of the sporting folklore that Hitler was so impressed by Dhyan Chand's sorcery with the stick that he offered him an officer's commission in the Wermacht.

1.Here's a book that is not just about Jews but about a Polish woman (although I have provided a link I recommend don't read it, it's a spoiler), just read the book, called Sophie's Choice. If you don't wish to read the fat book, follow the link. The book was so disturbing it was banned from some libraries (Wikipedia), no banning is required they should just warn the readers. It isn't physical cruelty but a choice the mother had to make that made me not just cry but for a while hate the book.

2.Night by Elie Weisel is a young boy's story , about how he is afraid to help his father because he is afraid of the soldiers....read summary here. It's a part of the syllabus in many schools.

3.Anne Frank's Diary - I think everybody has read this one. It's like reading the teenager's blog posts.

4. Boys from Brazil by -94 men must die, all around the same age, 59 if I remember correctly, all in similar jobs, living in many different countries all over Europe and America...all have young wives and sons around the same age. The sons are all light skinned, blue eyed, artistic, sensitive, very bright boys who are very close to their mothers...
What's this book got to with Hitler? Well if you know enough about Hitler you should have guessed by now! If you don't then the book will be a learning experience. It's a thriller. Very engrossing.

5. Shadow Life - (Bought from Scholastic book fair, basically meant for kids) What happened to Anne Frank after they were discovered by the SS Guards? Read about 'the final days of Anne and Margot, as well as other rarely seen details.'

Do add some more books and movies to the list.

I wish those who talk of Hitler's achievements will talk of Lennon, Martin Luther King Jr, and John Lennon ...

64 comments:

Just call me 'A' said...

I think 'they' know really know the idealogies of either Gandhi or Hitler really well. That's why they support both in one breath.

How do we know said...

Great post IHM.. i really liked it!

Goofy Mumma said...

I really don't know what to say after reading this post. there is no doubt in my mind that Hitler was a monster, and unfortunately a powerful, motivating one at that. I have seen the movie, Sophie's Choice, as a child, and I remember her decision. I did not realise the importance of it then, but i so understand it today. How tough is it for a mother.

Anyone who idolises Hitler is abviously a monster too. The Thakerays and Modi are a terrible threat to the integrity of our nation, and unfortunately no one is realising it now, nor trying to change things. I hope people realise it before its too late.

Goofy Mumma said...

There is no doubt in my mind that Hitler was a demon,unfortunately a powerful and well supported one at that. I never knew India supported him. God! Nothing in the world can ever defend him, his thoughts or actions. No way.I had seen the movie Spphie's Choice as a child, but i understand the significance of it now. I can't think of a punishment worse than that for a mother.

By being followers of Hitler, Modi n the Thakeray's show their true colours. I have always believed that they are capable of more henious deeds than the ones they have already committed. I just hope that they danger they pose to our country is recognised before it is too late, and they are punished.

Unpretentious Diva said...

Well, get on a copy of Mein Keimf, and it will give a proper insight of what Hitler was, a psychic, nothing else.

Some fotos-- http://www.taringa.net/posts/imagenes/1906709/Fotos-de-la-Alemania-Nazi----Parte-II.html

Than one may start reading some Subhash Chandra Bose biography, theres alot of Hitler in it.

And it is the main cause why Hitler was/is not chided by indians.
As a matter of fact, Hitler had a surge for welfare controlled state and Subhash Bose had a surge for Dictatorial state, even since 1980's people used to debate how better it might have been if Subhash was alive and was dictating India for a great future. (My elder cousins says so).
it also suggests why the idea of liberty is so difficult for Indians.
Hitler is epitome of collectivism. And the people who can think of liking Hitler, how the hell they will like the voice of liberty, its just opposite.
Than Indians have had some fake idea of aryanism too, the greater and better race.

By the way, you might have made the heading as "why most of the Indians...." I mean should i call myself indian? But i never liked Hitler, He was always the villain. Ok then I won't call myself indian. I am Libertarian.
This is the Holocast timeline--
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html


Should i tell you a certain truth which most of the people do not realize?

Hitler was not the most dangerous villain of that era. He was BAD.
The ugliest person of that era was STALIN.
Nazism, is despicable, socialism is hell.


here is a story about socialist and nazi salutation-- http://history.verdeserve.com/the-official-american-flag-salute-used-to-be-a-hitler-salute/
Nah, i am not saying it shows they are same.

Nazism and socialism has a great difference. Nazism is welfare Big brother system, so is socialism, thats similarity, socialism is atheist, Stalin killed jews, christians, muslims all irrespective of religion. Nazism is religion oriented.

Nazism is more like National-socialism, while Socialism is not nationalist in particular. But India is national socialist state. Indira gandhi slated it in Indian constituion.


And here is another controversy regarding henry Ford and hitler.

"That Henry Ford, the famous automobile manufacturer gave money to the National Socialists directly or indirectly has never been disputed," said Konrad Heiden, one of the first biographers of Hitler.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/fordnazi.htm

Ahh theres alot. Will come back to add in again!

Ajit said...

you are right IHM, I personally know many people who admire him (for his good side)....
and by his good side, I mean his passion, courage and his force for character... but for me personally, he will remain in the worst category.......
I have read his Mein Kampf and though he does outline a lot of views in the book, the sheer extremism of his actions started only when he started ruling.....
but yeah, good one IHM......

Aneela Z said...

oh this is a post that should have LONG been posted...I guess growing up during the '80s in a country that was a quasi-American colony (courtesy the Cold War) we were innundated with American lit. and considering the Jewish diaspora (and their influence when it comes to American popular culture) we grew up well-versed with the Holocaust...not so much now. Ive seen the red black swatsika displayed on bed-linen (!!)..chatting with Indian kids and their problematic understanding of an " Aryan " past and commonality of interest when it came to the Nazi regime (kudos on the Modi reference...he had Hitler's story as required reading in schools right)..yup they dont understand that us desis would not have been part of the Aryan brat pack!!

kochuthresiamma p .j said...

dont worry about thackeray & Modi. They r aberrations in a civilized society.
u r right, somewhere down the line, our educationists decided to dilute history - and hitler was the beneficiary. remember reading cbse history text with my son. had to tell him about the most shameful chapter in the history of man 'cos the text book gave it only a 2-3 sentence status.
btw, was an ardent admirer of the jews. but not anymore. will post a blog on the change soon.
nevertheless, read 'the chosen' by chaim potok. it's not about holocaust, but about the hasidic sect of jews. amazing book.

@lankr1ta said...

Schindler's List, IHM. Anyhow, one can just do a wikipedia search on the Holocaust. I just cannot understand how a mass murderer can be idolized by any one. No matter how much of an "enemy of the enemy" he was. The British did not gas children to death and call people a "Jewish problem".

Maya said...

Hitler is a villain in the west, he has done wrong but not to us so we dont care. its that simple.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Just call me A - They know, but would use anything to support their 'cause'!

@How do we know - Thank you :)

@Goofy Mamma He barely had full majority, I forget the details but it was something like Gore and Bush case ...and that is why WE must vote.

@Unpretentious Diva I have Mein Kampf at home, but haven't read it ... my daughter bought it off the road side because a friend of hers was a Hitler fan ...
Please do add more information, I will go through your links. Thank You :)

@Ajit Maybe I should read the book.. but for me, just like for you, not any books or thoughts but his actions speak louder than anything... I think, as GM above puts it 'Hitler was a monster, and unfortunately a powerful, motivating one at that ... ...

@Aneela Z This was informative! I never realised you studied a different History! Shows how much influence politics has on everything! I agree, and I wish all those Indians who support him will see too, 'yup they dont understand that us desis would NOT have been part of the Aryan brat pack!! :) (a bitter smiley)

@KPJ I bought a lot of books from Scholastic International to make up for the lack of information in the History text books ... and I am also no fan of any people who kill innocent civilians, just read Charakan's post.
on this ...

@Alankrita Will add Schindler's List to the list above.
I was wondering if somebody might defend him...
But it's good to find that we don't learn all our history from history books alone.

@Maya Not just that, we also take pride in calling ourselves the Aryans! Hitler would have shown us in the gas chambers how much he thought we were Aryans.

Nita said...

A very well written post.
But I feel that the admirers of Hitler in India are not that ignorant, they admire certain qualities of Hitler. It's sick isn't it. About the shopkeeper he was I am sure doing it partly to be sensational, to attract business.

Pinku said...

hey...you brought back all the ugly memories..when as a child I had learned about the holocaust in school and later through reading various novels in my father's library..I was very disturbed for a long time.

Hitler was brilliant at many things but he just wasnt human...when Modi and Thakrey talk about him thats what they want to point out about themselves as well.

hitch writer said...

Indians dont hate Hitler ? Well may be But I am not sure Indians love Hitler either..

However the fact of the matter remains he did to the British what a lot of Indians wanted to do in that era !! The british ravaged our countries, dividing it, killed thousands, inflicted rapes and what not (http://www.massviolence.org/India-from-1900-to-1947?cs=print) ... Albeit at times using our own people.

When you talk of us as Indians well as Indians we don’t have to care about Hitler...

When you will talk of us as Humans, yes Hitler was one of the sickest Mind ever to have born and the fact that he was in a position where he could inflict so much damage was catastrophical.


IHM, I noticed that you also put Modi in that list of people who admire Hitler. I am not too sure if it is the right thing to do. I would like to take an exception to it.

He may be a fan of the determination of Hitler however admiring traits of a person should not account for admiration for a persons deeds.

Modi is an Autocrat and not a dictator. He made a huge mistake in Gujarat, although he himself has never tried to make amends for that mistake, he has paid the price of it as he has been left out as a regional politician and will never have any role ever in the Centre.

The fact that the man is non corrupt and progressive is the reason why he is elected again with thumping majority every time. Don’t tell me that he doesn’t get any Muslim votes.


Muslims in Gujarat don’t love him surely, but let me tell you a lot of my own Muslim friends tell me it is much better to have him as CM than any one else.


I am not trying to justify him on Godhra, He should have been sacked and made to serve in Jail but India is not an ideal country and no other country is. The world is not ideal, Bush lives as President and even retires inspite of the fact that he has blood of children and women on his hands, more so than Narendra Modi.


In Gujarat why decisions get taken faster or why the policies are becoming clearer are actually due to the transparency and non corruption traits of this man. He is simply unrivalled and has no opposition. He has cleared the hurdles by removing all ministers from the decision making process and put in bureaucrats. That is the reason why his own party workers and party people are also trying to get him out, But the charisma is now beyond the BJP. Without Narendra Modi BJP cannot win in Gujarat.


Also Modi is not even claiming to be a Autocrat, it is people like us who feel he is functioning in that way….

We can learn the good things even from people like Hitler as long as we keep the vices away!!!

Phoenixritu said...

Painful film - reminded me of a movie dialogue

A : You are an animal
B : No!!! I am worse than an animal, I am human. Animals kill for hunger, we hunt and kill for entertainment.

I love this song - it is Lennon's finest moment

Indyeah said...

"What luck for rulers that men do not think."
-Adolf Hitler
A really relevant post IHM….specially in today’s times…
Teaching my students for the first time about this topic ,presented a major dilemna.because yes..Hitler was ‘evil’as all of us know but how does one get through that message to the new generation?
How does one get children/teenagers (some of whom seem to consider him a hero due to lack of knowledge) to see this gruesome side?
Simple…
Do not emphasize Hitler’s persona…rather emphasize his ‘ordinary’ status….how he rose from being just another citizen to being the tyrant that he turned into later.
How ‘mein Kampf ‘was written while he was still in his formative political years.
How some historians now believe that the book which was a national bestseller in Germany could have given a warning to the world of things to come had the book been allowed to be published in English and other languages for the rest of the world
How he used the sense of outrage and wounded German pride to fuel his own fire and reach his own’goals’.
How this man had a personal life so twisted.Di that turn him into the lunatic that he was?
His own personal resentment while wandering the streets of Vienna (when he was unemployed) and watching the well off Jews .
Now ask them questions about what it takes to be a democracy and how some countries turn to totalitarian rule.
AND ask them about any leaders today who are doing the same…..using identity/religion/caste/region/pride as an excuse…..(they say most of the leaders today:D)
How he used the swastika (something all of them know)and made it a much reviled symbol .How the rest of the world views the swastika as a’Nazi’ sign.
Are they good orators?capable of fooling the general masses with false promises to further their own ends?etc…etc….(Modi /Thackerays/some esteemed so called'muslim cause'/dalit cause/hindu cause/ champions and muslim leaders..the students figure it all out on their own....:)
A good book on Hitler by Joachim C Fest (the link for Fest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Fest )
Is this one called Hitler
http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Joachim-C-Fest/dp/0156027542
There are other works also by the same author on Hitler
And a film based on the bestseller by Joachim C.Fest and which has been made by Joachim and Christian Herrendoerfer is ‘Hitler a career’(includes rare footage from the era)
http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-Career-Adolph/dp/B000VAHR5U
Though there is controversy regarding this as well as there is for everything regarding Hitler.
PS-I started the class by showing them a cute baby photograph of Hitler)
and later telling them about his passion for painting…….most of them were astonished …Hitler as a painter and a’ cute’ baby?
It kind of drives the point home……
‘’In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule."
-Friedrich Nietzsche

Spontaneous Mini said...

More recently there was a family in News who have named their son. Adolf Hitler and the bakery refused to write "Happy Birthday to Adolf Hitler" on the cake. Infact last year they also wanted a Swastik sign that Hitler adopted fromHindu(Aryan)culture. I still wonder what that one was about?

and I have a cousin who is very bright, was obsessed about Hitler(must have read every book written about Hitler) as an adoloscent. Now we know he suffers from Schizophrenia, although I am not sure if that has anything to do with it.

Spontaneous Mini said...

You have been tagged!

D said...

We do not need to talk about Hitler, we could just talk about Mayawati!

sunder said...

i reproduce a part of a editorial view in one of the leading newspaper in muscat on the recent gaza war...

It is illustrative to browse through the relevant pages of history to know the real history of the Jews in Germany. You would then come to know why Hitler had taken harsh measures against them. The entire economy of Germany, including banks, publishing houses, jewellery stores, light and heavy industries and almost all economic organisations of consequence, was under the total control of the Jews.

They muddied every aspect of the economy by perpetrating fraud after fraud on common people. This unprepossessing situation annoyed the German citizens no end and impelled Hitler to punish the Jews for their bad deeds.

full text : http://www.timesofoman.com/view_point.asp?details=on&ratopic_nd=238

Bones said...

I think Indians are enamoured by Hitler because he adopted the Swastika as the Nazi Party logo …Swastika=Hinduism=Aryans…Who knows if the ‘Aryans’ actually settled in India and where they came from but Indians especially some North Indians consider themselves to be Aryans, therefore as white as Hitler’s German Aryans (I can see the resemblance!!!)…Way to go ,man!!! I know Bengalis (I am a Bengali) are enamoured by him because Subhas Chandra Bose sought his help…As you said, Anti-British=Pro Hitler…

People should read ‘Mein Kampf’…I still haven’t figured out why it’s banned in India but believe me, it’s an interesting read…If you don’t want to become another Hitler, it’s imperative you read this book…He was basically an average guy with average talents who became jealous of people who were better than him i.e. the Jews…

Indyeah said...

and of course before doing all of the above, the children need to be shown some movies/images ..gruesome though they might be (of course keeping in mind their age)
because only then does it come as a shock to them when they learn so much about this 'demented being' who was not an exception (as they think)but rather an ordinary person just like them.
that 'oh '''Hitler was a one off..these things don't happen.anymore..'' attitude is shaken and gets a jolt...(Though I think that at that age in 9th and 10th they are ready to learn about the 'world' however gruesome a place it might be...)
and most of all they,the new generation needs to realize that unless they are not vigilant new Hitlers can and will rise..

and Hitler can NEVER....NEVER have good points...How in god's name can people justify THAT????
HOW?
THIS IS JUST HOW 'IT' STARTS....
''OH HE DOES THIS and he DID that but he's PROGRESSIVE and isnt that enough?''
WHAT????
Try losing a loved one...just another statistic or a number in the 'official' records....but a void in one's own world...
People who can spout thses theories are the ones comfortably sitting as a majority in this country...
TRY BEING THE MINORITY AND FEEL THE FEAR..THE SHEER TERROR of knowing that you'll be killed just because you don't belong to the majotrity
This chalta hai attitude is what I detest...
CHALTA HAI FOR MURDER?GENOCIDE??????

Solilo... said...

IHM: At first I thought..you joined Saamna. LOL

homecooked said...

Lovely post! We just watched Valkyrie. You know even I didnt know about Holocaust till I came to the US. I knew Hitler was bad but didnt know the extent of his villiany. But my husband .... like unpretentious Diva says that Stalin was the worst.

cafephilos said...

So far as I can tell, Hitler in many ways behaved like someone afflicted with a severe mental or emotional illness. That seemed to work towards the benefit of the Allies -- especially towards the end. The British Secret Service, for instance, refused to try to assassinate Hitler on the grounds his decisions were so poor they were helping the Allies win the war. I wonder, though, how commonly known all that is about Hitler?

Rakesh Vanamali said...

Hitler was always viewed as a potential ally during the world war and the ongoing freedom movement! Netaji Bose had initiated contact with Hitler and was rumoured to have met some of his deputies! It is popularly believed that he was assassinated by the British Intelligence due to his proximity with the Germans and the Soviets, thereby posing a direct threat to the Brits!

Hitler on the other hand was a monster like none ever! Nothing ever justifies the holocaust and the attorcities commited by the Nazis!

Thanks for a mention of these books, I will be sure to read them

Smitha said...

@IHM, All I can say is, that to me, there is no two ways about it - Hitler was all bad.. We have enough and more good people to learn from - without having to find 'good qualities' in monsters like Hitler. To look at redeeming qualities in him - is a little too dangerous. It is good that WWI and WWII is to included in CBSE - hopefully, it will re-inforce the true scale of what Hitler did.

1conoclast said...

IHM,

Valid points all.

It's not surprising at all actually.

I very clearly remember knowing about Hitler's atrocities through our NCERT Social Studies books. A picture of a STARVED, naked man was in there. That's the most they could allow 12 year olds to see I guess.
We all knew how much of a @#$%^&* hitler was!

Those who didn't know, didn't have the benefit of a modern education (something that the sanghis scoff at, because it is against their hero-hitler again). Indian facist/race-supremacist groups will obviously admire hitler. And quote him. It's not surprising. A lot of Maharashtrian teenagers are proud to have read mein kampf. That they're ignorant about Gandhi's, Nehru's, Voltaire's, Tolstoy's, Neitzche's books is hardly surprising.

Now you will probably know what I mean when I keep harping about the indoctrination in shakha schools!!!

Inka bhee time aayega...! I would've added something, but my dog would take serious offence!

Chirag said...

Ha ha we disagree, finally.

First A useless fact: Subash C. Bose was allowed to sit next to Hitler, when they met and it was a really big deal to sit with him.

My take:
If separate three
a) Hitler the Human - had a bad childhood, married his long-time mistress
b) Hitler the Dictator - Bastard
b) Hitler the Administrator - Sucessful and A great leader


Hitler had a troubled childhood, as his father was violent to him and violent towards his mother. He wanted to become a painter instead of a official what his father wanted. Hitler had always admired Germany, and during the war he had become a German patriot, although he did not start as a German citizen. Rest is history so to speak...Anyways...We may hate this guy for killing innocent people. he enabled greatest expansions of industrial production and civil improvement Germany had ever seen. Finally he united a country for one cause didn't he?

Most netas today don't even know what they stand for. We'll leave Mr. Gandhi for this one.
IHM, Raj Thakre and Modi are like foot solders in Hitlers camp, you know cheap imitations. Don't give them any due at all.
Hitler wanted to unify Germany and how clould he have done what he did without people's support, these idots don't want to unify India, they just want to remain in power.

Finally yes the ways he used and methods are spine chilling and bloody shocking. I just want him to have a fair fight.

astralwicks said...

It is the stupidity of our times that people do not read. Not in libraries or on the net.

Why stop at Hitler. There was Lenin, Stalin, Id Amin, Pinochet, Mussolini, General Franco and now Mugabe to learn from

Sanjay Gandhi / Indira Gandhi combination also tried their hand at taking absolute power in their hands to set matters right subverting the rule of law and the constitution.

Modi if you take a poll of the merchant bankers, industrialists will emerge on top of the heap to be the leader. Someone who can cut corners and do the job. Who cares for civil liberties.

Islamist terrorists also share traits with Hitlers superiority of the Aryan race bull...with the present lot believing in irreconcilable differences between people of the other race and religion and the avowed superiority of theirs.

Haven't changed much, have we?

abhishek said...

absolutely true...We Indians actually know very little about Hitler because very little is written in the texts we study in school. All we come to know is he was a dictator and a very ambitious person whose aim was to rule the world. We are also informed of how Bose tried to get help from Hitler in his quest to evict the Britishers from India.

I actually read very little but being a movie aficionado I have seen quite a few movies about the 'Holocaust' and they have continually thickened my gut wrenching hate towards Hitler.
Some of the filma I have seen are:

1.Sophie's Choice(Meryl Streep in an unforgettable performance)
2.Schindler's list.
3.The pianist.
4.Night and fog.
5.Life is Beautiful.(very ephemeral view of the Holocaust)

There's one movie named Shoah(9 hr long) which exclusively details on how Hitler went about in his job to exterminate the Jews. I think calling Hitler Satan would be an euphemism.

dinu said...

right time to read it .. just read on ibn that Mittals, and Ambani saw India's future prime minister in Modi !!!

so, no wonder, they just look at money ... and if you send these people to those concentration camps shown in the video .. we just need to think about how much money/stuff will Ambani or Mittal find out among those dead bodies, nothing else matters ~~~

Indian Home Maker said...

@Nita Yeah I agree Nita, it is sick :(

@Pinku Imagine our leaders are comparing themselves to someone who is 'brilliant at many things but not human!'

@hitchwriter let me quote Smitha here, "We have enough and more good people to learn from - without having to find 'good qualities' in monsters like Hitler. To look at redeeming qualities in him - is a little too dangerous"

1conoclast said...

OK... bottom up...

dinu,

DEPLORABLE! Got a link or something??
___

abhishek,

Remember the opening scene from Constantine...? :-)
___

astralwicks,

No, sadly we haven't changed much. Which is why I keep yelling EVOLVE at people!
___

Chirag,

1. How many children in India grow up brutalised by their parents & watching their Mother's being brutalised?
1.1 How many of them grow up to be hitler?
You get my drift I'm sure?

It's important to read Dr. Thomas Harris' "I'm OK, you're OK" to know how one shouldn't blame the parent or the child for the actions of the adult.

Can't we just say hitler snapped somewhere along the way, that he was in fact cuckoo?

2. Gandhiji also united a nation for a common cause.

My purpose is never to let any apology exist for the likes of hitler-bal thakre-narendra modi.

1conoclast said...

IHM,

Very well summarized!

Smitha's last line is brilliant & should be our Talisman when it comes to leaders!

Indian Home Maker said...

@Ritu yeah, that is why added that warning, but Ritu this book Sophie's Choice was much worse ...
I love the song too :) Deep down most of us want just some peace.

@Sponataneous Mini I think who we admire does say a lot about us! No? So there maybe a connection :(
Will come and pick the tag pronto :)

@D Oh yes Mayawati!!!But there is a difference, unlike Hitler, Mayawati will have many statues everywhere :)

@Indyeah!!! You are brilliant :) I am going to add these links to the post.
I agree with everything you have said! Thanks :))...

Indian Home Maker said...

@Sunder
//The entire economy of Germany, including banks, publishing houses, jewellery stores, light and heavy industries and almost all economic organisations of consequence, was under the total control of the Jews.//
Just like North Indians are ruining the economy is Maharshtra?
They muddied every aspect of the economy by perpetrating fraud after fraud on common people.
If this was true how does one handle this? By throwing their children and families in gas chambers in huge fires?
This unprepossessing situation annoyed the German citizens no end and impelled Hitler to punish the Jews for their bad deeds.
And justice was done?
full text :
Times Of Oman
These are points of views, we need to see that no matter how angry we are with the Israel, we can't start justifying Hitler's inhuman acts.

Freya said...

Thanks to my wonderful History prof, i know about Hitler well and still hate him. I used to wonder how can such a man exist. My teacher also showed photographs of the survivors of the Nazi camps. I still remember them. They looked nothing like humans, they were practically skeletons and looked straight out of a horror flick. Such torture and brutality is glorified here. People in India love power, they dont actually see it's bad or not. We call our teachers who are strict as Hitler, this itself shows our ignorance.

Modi idolizes Hitler and RT idolises both Modi and Hitler. In an interview with Shobhaa De, he also said that what Hitler did was right, clearly suggesting that he might as well like Hitler if he gains power.

eve's lungs said...

Indians probably do not feel very strongly about Hitler as much as Europeans and Americans do because he did nothing to us - but had his vision of world conquest been a reality he would have gassed Indians except for those he considered the pure Aryan strain .
We did study European history in school and our syllabus covered both world wars.
Conquerors for time immemorial have committed atrocities on the conquered . The Jews were mercilessly tortured in Czarist Russia . America has perpetrated atrocities in the Middle East and Vietnam. However ,since Nazi atrocities and the genocides they generated have been so well documented both by themselves as well as Americans and the British , we know so much about it . But how much does the world know of Soviet gulags in Siberia .
About books , The Diary of Anne Frank has to be read and understood in its fullest context , I feel and not like a teenager's blog .Sophie's Choice has disturbed me tremendously every time I have read it . The Wall has been a favourite book as is Spiegelman's Maus . Among films Sophie's Choice ,The Pianist,Schindler's List and Night and Fog .
There must have been something in Hitler that enabled him to mobilise an entire nation .

Another Kiran In NYC said...

I was going to say that a mandatory visit to an Polish/German/Ukranian etc etc concentration camp should be part of syllabus for everyone! Eye opening that!

But then I thought.... perhaps a few mandatory days in a slum or a village sharing space and time with the lowest of low, will be more effective. Let everyone experience how others below them in the economic and social order live and work and then lets see how many people do not have empathy after that.

Sometimes doing and experiencing is more important than all textbooks in the world.

For the record I am glad they are including the horrors of world wars in the syllabus. When I graduated high school, a million years ago, we didnt know crap about crap in History. It was all Amar Chitra Katha to pass the exam.

1conoclast said...

eve's lungs...

"There must have been something in Hitler that enabled him to mobilise an entire nation ."

I've said before that good & bad exist in all human beings. Those who inspire men to do evil deeds are politicians. Those who inspire men to good deeds are Saints or Prophets.

1conoclast said...

eve's lungs...

Here actually...

Indian Home Maker said...

@Bones Love this!' ...some North Indians consider themselves to be Aryans, therefore as white as Hitler’s German Aryans (I can see the resemblance!!!)… Way to go ,man!!!' :)

@Indyeah People who can spout these theories are the ones comfortably sitting as a majority in this country...
TRY BEING THE MINORITY AND FEEL THE FEAR..THE SHEER TERROR of knowing that you'll be killed just because you don't belong to the majority
This chalta hai attitude is what I detest...
CHALTA HAI FOR MURDER?GENOCIDE??????

And not to forget anybody can become a minority... caste, region, language, anything can become a reason for hate. Once this becomes a trend it is only a matter of time ...

@Solilo For that read this :)

@Homecooked I need to read up on Stalin.

@Unpretentious Diva Some photos you gave the link of.

@cafephilos Thanks for this, info, I had no idea! :)

Rakesh Vanamali I am so glad you think 'Nothing ever justifies the holocaust and the atrocities committed by the Nazis!'

@Smitha I just don't understand why we try to find excuses for such horrible crimes ... :(
I have quoted you in a reply above.

@1conoclast Mein Kampf is available openly, even on roadside stalls, but I have not read it... I like Indyeah's ideas about how to teach students about Hitler.
Indyeah says 'How some historians now believe that the book which was a national bestseller in Germany could have given a warning to the world of things to come had the book been allowed to be published in English and other languages for the rest of the world.
How he used the sense of outrage and wounded German pride to fuel his own fire and reach his own’goals’.

@lankr1ta said...

IHM, what is worse than Hitler coming to power is how the people tolerated him. He was one demented person, but he managed to build a country where people helped to gas to death other people, women children even. His "doctors" performed experiments on living human beings without anesthesia often. A single person cannot be that effective. He appealed to something very ghastly in people- which is what I find very scary. It is that kind of "otherization" of Muslims, of minorities, or outsiders that political parties do which is the culprit. Stalin and the rest also were like that. They played the communist and anti-communist card....the scary thing is people listened to them.

N said...

Nice post IHM...
I had seen 'Life is Beautiful' a few years back and was moved to tears.
I guess i should read sophies choice.

SADLY even these days you would find people who lay so much emphasis on the color of the skin, race, ethnicity etc. There are undercurrents of racism even today in Germany more prominently and other places maybe a little less prominent.
Of course we see that being played by Indian Politicians for cheap publicity..
It was also palpable among the republican supporters in US.

@ Smitha..well worded

Indyeah said...

Thanks for the appreciation IHM..:)
I thought that the statement you made was VERY powerful...
''And not to forget ANYBODY can become a minority''
Yes,...so true..and so terrifying in its sheer intensity...
As they say...
''Tomorrow it could be you.''

This poem is by Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984) about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power and the purging of their chosen targets, group after group.(Wikipedia)

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."

Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

and you know what strikes me now ,as I sit here?
The sheer irony of it all......when the world should have read 'Mein Kampf' and should have known (or atleast tried to)of what could or would happen,at that time the book was banned from being published outside Germany.....
....and today it sells like hotcakes all over the 'global' village........

Indian Home Maker said...

@Chirag You say, 'I just want him to have a fair fight.' now Chirag be really fair to him. Does he deserve that we look for some goodness in him?
When we look for goodness in such evil there is a risk of justifying what he did ..

He saw no goodness in the babies who were thrown into fire alive. Any talk of a few drops of goodness in such an ocean of evil might sound like he was not so wrong after all ...
If somebody kills our family and gives us a truly peaceful, safe, luxurious, perfect and prosperous life after that, will we accept it?

If you be really fair to him, just think Chirag, does he deserve any admiration. AND also be fair to all those millions he got gassed, experimented on, tortured, separated from families before getting them killed.
(ha I am rambling now...)

Indian Home Maker said...

@astralwicks Agree with everything you've said here. No we haven't really changed :(

@Abhishek Thanks! That is a useful list and I know many of us will prefer movies to books. Will add all the names to the post, for easy reference :)

@Dinu Yes I saw and I am puzzled => Anil Ambani is Amar Singh and Amitabh Bachchan and Mulayam Singh's friend/supporter? =>Mulayam Singh support minorities in UP successfully => Modi has committed, unrepentantly, the worst crimes against minorities? => Do they have integrity to anything except money?

Indian Home Maker said...

@Freya You are right, ?People in India love power, they dont actually see it's bad or not :(
I fear glorification evil even more than the evil.

@Eve's Lungs We should remember,'but had his vision of world conquest been a reality he would have gassed Indians except for those he considered the pure Aryan strain'!!
We really are such ... So most of us with blue eyes and golder hair would have been safe :(
Thanks for the list of books, you are right , the Diary of Anne Frank has to be read in its full context ...

@Another Kiran I agree, sometimes we only understand something when we go through it.
And 'When I graduated high school, a million years ago, we didnt know crap about crap in History. It was all Amar Chitra Katha to pass the exam.' Ditto here. I think the syllabus was different everywhere ...

@Alankrita "It is that kind of "otherization" of Muslims, of minorities, or outsiders that political parties do which is the culprit. Stalin and the rest also were like that. They played the communist and anti-communist card....the scary thing is people listened to them. " I can only agree.

@N Yes it is :( I so agree with you on all this, undercurrent of racialism in Germans, Republicans are a lot like our BJP here, conservative and prejudiced. Nice to meet people who see through all this.

@Indyeah great minds think alike! I blogged about this
here
:)

Indian Home Maker said...

@Indyeah I clicked submit accidently without finishing the comment above :)
That poem gives me goose bumps, we should make an Indian version of it, we have all the reasons,

In Gujarat, they came for the Muslims and Christians,
Kerala and Orissa too.
In Mumbai first they came for Gujratis,
Then they came for Madrasis,
Then Muslims (1992-93)
Then they came for Biharis ...
In Kerala, in BJP time, my Hindu maid's Christian husband asked if he could hang a white star he had made himself on a tree in our garden and I was so sick of all the news of hatred against this community and that community I got him to take out all our Diwali lights and do up the tree. I know for sure I had never before thought of people as Chrisitians or Muslims or Hindus ... same way, Hitler made Germans aware of their differences. It shocking how easy it is to make people hate!

I haven't read Mein Kampf, but I know nothing ever justifies violence for me.
'....and today it sells like hotcakes all over the 'global' village........' Yeah I know so many people reading it and defending Hitler ...

Kislay said...

First of all , I second what Ajit said . But I have more to add .
Hitler had quite a few qualities that make a great leader .
He was a deep thinker and brilliant orator . But whenever , I think of him ,
and I start to develop an admiration for the man , I have to remind myself that
Holocaust happened . And that is it , Period . He was great , true , but more evil
than great . I always bear that in mind .


@Bones
Mein Kampf is NOT banned in India . I bought it . And I see it everytime I go to a book store .

And the enemy of an enemy is a friend , indeed . China and Pakistan .
But you have to be sure of the motive of that friend .
I do not think Japan and Germany were helping out Netaji out of compassion for the Indian people .
But I am grateful for whatever help we got . And I hope , that had we been victorious the way Bose wanted , we would not
have been colonized by our "friends" or become a satellite of them .
And Hitler's animosity towards jews was deeper than that , I guess . He somehow blamed for Germany's loss in
WW I . I am not sure why . And that is what "he" says in his book . No idea how true it is.

For those who haven't , do watch the movie Conspiracy . Bottomline of the movie , Hitler and his gang initially
did not want to exterminate the Jews . They wanted to throw them out of Germany ; but nobody came to their rescue then .
Nobody was willing to take the Jews . Not even the Vatican . Just imagine if the jews had been given shelter then . But when
there were no takers , this Nazi-in-Chief, his name slips me , came up with diabolical plan to annihilate the Jews on an Industrial
Level . The rest as we know his history .

The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary. Men alone are quite capable of every wickedness - Joseph Conrad

Vikram said...

Why do the westerner's not hate Alexander ?

Indyeah said...

Awesome post that one IHM..@@consider yourself warned.''
true,if only people thought as much...

and we HAVE to get a patent/copyright/or something on 'the great minds theory' IHM!!:D

Ajit said...

"But when there were no takers , this Nazi-in-Chief, his name slips me , came up with diabolical plan to annihilate the Jews on an Industrial level"

answer is Himmler....and another small detail....about this loser.....
He carried around with him a copy of Bhagavat Geeta with him all the time as he is said to have felt like Arjuna..... against evil and he also felt that he was only doing his duty.....
:(

Monika said...

mentioning gandhi and hitler on the same page is like a crime... these guys need to understand what gandhi stood for and what hitler did

Usha Pisharody said...

It's a horror, but right here and now, there are ever so many intelligent young persons asking the history teacher at school about Hitler, and telling her that he is a sort of hero. And nothing she could say managed to convince one particular young chap.. he went on to write a drama about the last days of Hitler, and wanted to put it up for the cultural competitions at school :) Had a tough time dissuading him, and asking him to read the other side of the story through some of these books too. He had, and yet had this fascination for the man. Strange, that even today in this time of reason and knowledge of facts that not just children, even grown ups find reason to think well of him.

Though it is said that one has to look for the finer points of a man's character, which has both good and evil, nothing, for me can condone, or in any way make me think kindly of him, for the crimes of genocide and holocaust that he, individually was responsible for!

Kislay said...

@Ajit
Himmler and Geeta ? Amazing man . Did Himmler had any idea of what "Dharma" really is all about ? :) Where did you read this ? Please tell me about the source .
And do you know about Savitri Devi ? The Nazi who sought to bring together Nazism and Hindusim ? Google her if you haven't heard of her . Very interesting .

eve's lungs said...

@1conoclast - Not really . At first what Hitler said pleased the Germans - it was a little local thing of getting the economy back from the Jews , before Hitler had his huge political vision and by then ,the guys who cheered him on as leader also contributed to the whole picture . So it was not the little man with the toothbrush mustachio who co ordinated the whole thing himself , but yes he acted as a binder much like egg yolk which you use to bind meat for kebabs and suchlike .Binders are most important - they are also loosely termed leaders .

Indian Home Maker said...


1conoclast

Kislay,

1. In your earlier comment you say that hitler was great. You say this objectively or do you say this with admiration for his great qualities?

2. SO savitri devi is responsible for this virulent form of hinduism plaguing our country today???
___

eve's lungs,

a) But you get the difference I refer to right?

b) Do you see the similarities between the german hoopla around hitler's economic turnaround, and the gujarati/hindutvi/bjp hoopla around modi's achievements in an already prospering gujju economy?

There's no point in looking for great leadership qualities in edi emin, gaddafi, general zia, osama bin laden etc.??????

If we have to discuss leadership, can we not discuss Lincoln & Gandhi?

Indian Home Maker said...

@Vikram Alexander was just like many other conquerors of his times, he did not kill millions of any innocent people ... in fact his soldiers married and settled down in some of the places he conquered. Including India.

@Kislay //'They wanted to throw them out of Germany ; but nobody came to their rescue then .
Nobody was willing to take the Jews .'//

I have also read of this,but I have read that this is not entirely true. It isn't possible to accept a huge population into your country and nobody knew - could ever imagine - what Hitler was doing to Jews. He in fact prevented Jews from escaping later. Babies were smuggled out, families escaped, I am sure you have read about this. if he was so ken to just let them go, why did he stop them from leaving?
Also what right did Hitler have to try to throw them out?

@Indyeah LOL :)

@Monika I agree :))

@Usha Pishaody Sad!!! And I completely agree with you, "Though it is said that one has to look for the finer points of a man's character, which has both good and evil, nothing, for me can condone, or in any way make me think kindly of him, for the crimes of genocide and holocaust that he, individually was responsible for! I am puzzled by people wanting to see something good in Hitler ...

1conoclast said...

IHM,

Isn't "puzzled" a euphemism...? ;-)

Kislay said...

@1con
Hitler had some good leadership qualities . I say this objectively . And yes , he was great , or the greatest , of all evil men .

Please read about Savitri Devi before asking me these questions . And I see virulent forms of all religions , in the World .

@IHM
What you say is true . But they were denied help , where they could have got some . And I never said Hitler had any right to throw them out .

And objectively speaking , even a mafia boss can have great leadership qualities . That doesn't legitimatizes his work , but he wouldn't have made it to the top , without it . What he uses them for is what makes him good or bad , in a general manner of speaking .

1conoclast said...

Thanks Kislay.
That's satisfactory.

One more set of questions, in case you're game?
1. Should we seek to publicize his leadership qualities the way some people do?
2. If yes, should we also seek to publicize the remarkable leadership & military capabilities of guys like Changez Khan, Timur Lane, Babur & that most reviled character by gujjus... Mahmud Ghazni (was it?)?

Savio said...

Hi, Homemaker. It's a nice article. I've covered about Hitler and Gypsies (who are of Indian origin)in my blog posting. Savio

http://unauthorizedshadowprimeministerindia.blogspot.com/2009/01/is-hitler-your-role-model-think-twice.html