Thursday, October 9, 2008

Ten Answeres To Fight A Ravana

Answer ten questions marked with *

Well, so why not let all Hindus choose their caste. Wasn't that how it originally started? We've all read in school about how the system of castes in Hinduism evolved. Nehru discussed this in Discovery of India. Originally, we were not born into our castes, we were Kshatriya, Vaishya, Brahman or Shudra, depending on the vocations we chose. Our children did not inherit our castes, they were free to choose what they did with their lives. We were truly democratic and liberal.

Somehow we allowed the system to become so rigid that some of our fellow Hindus, who should have been equal in every way, were exploited, enslaved, cheated, humiliated and abused. We don’t want them to worship Christ, but we won’t let enter our temples.Even today many of us will not touch them, many will not share a meal with them, most of us genuinely believe in our superiority over them, and will never marry amongst them, but, we don’t want them to turn away! Our logic being ‘Even Christians have castes’. Well, they obviously feel more wanted there. We have no business to burn them for converting. If somebody robbed you and burnt your house and your family, what would you call them?* If they did this in the name of religion does it become acceptable then?* Shouldn’t any such gangs be stopped immediately? Can we kill, rape, rob and burn people alive in the name of religion?*

If Christian Missionaries can woo them, why can't we?* We can win them back with respect, equality, dignity and love. Not with gau-mootra !

Those who convert to Christianity/Buddhism are obviously unhappy with their birth-caste. Reconverting them to the same caste serves no purpose. So, all reconverts should be converted to Brahmans. As of now, VHP and bajrang dal are making them drink cow's urine and reconverting them back to dalits. Is this going to make them love Hinduism? Shouldn't these gangs, hijacking Hindusim, be banned?*

What if they still wish to convert to Christianity?* I think then we must accept that we cannot stop them, who we pray to is not something anybody can dictate. Today in DNA, R Jagannathan talked about how many times he has converted, and I realised many of us have done the same thing. I became a staunch Krishna Fan as a child, after reading Mira Bai's story in Amar Chitra Katha. Today I think I'd fall in the category of a Liberal, Agnostic Hindu. What's your religion in your Face book profile? (or otherwise)*


And should we say the same logic should also entitle economically backward Upper caste Hindus the option to convert to dalits. Allow no lower caste Hindu unearned handicaps or privileges. In fact, VHP will serve the Hindu Nation much better by converting upper-caste Hindus to Dalits so they can avail of reservations available to the dalits, 'Ambedkars' or Chamaars, or Chandals. How many will exchange places? Unthinkable!? Why is it so bad to even think of converting to a dalit caste?*


Just imagine if just being yourself, if just being born to your parents and your caste was an insult! If your name or caste was a slur or an insult, how would you feel? *Students protesting reservations were singing on traffic jams (seen on TV) and what were they singing?

'Ramchandra kah gaye Siya se, aisa kalyuga ayega, hans chugega dana tinka, Kauwa moti khayega.’ [Ramchandra told Sita that in kalyuga the deserving white swan will eat ordinary grain and the lowly black crow will eat Pearls (of reservation)]

Either you live your entire life in humiliation or you reject the cause of this humiliation.
I know what I would have done. I would have converted with family and friends and escaped, no rejected, such indignity. Were you in their place would you have chosen low caste Hinduism over Christianity/Buddhism, with or without any perks?* Put yourself in their position. What would you have done?



People who quote Gandhi when they talk against conversions forget Gandhi was dead against castiesm and very much for equality and reservation.

EDITED TO ADD Read why MadMomma is glad her ancestors converted to Christianity, here. And read why Ajit thinks that 'The culture that we have inherited is also just 61 years old', here.

77 comments:

phoenixritu said...

Its bad - this entire Bullying. People who want to leave Hinduism should be allowed to walk away. Have you noticed its only the economically weaker section that is preyed upon by the Hindutva types

Indian Home Maker said...

Phoenixritu Yes I agree, and I really want to know what others think ...
it's always the poor who suffer.

Aneela Z said...

Yup, that is what life boils down to, an accident of birth and you inherit a state of 'have or have not/being or non-being'...I wish we could sit in for a psych test/profiling at a certain age and then be assigned a religion suited best to our personality. There is a Brahman in my life who cribs about Brahmans about being marginalized and Im flabbergasted and point out What exactly is it that he does which is 'true' to being Brahman, eats meat, deals in commerce, has never even read a COMIC in his life rather anything 'intellectual''/religious texts. Oh well....

Mampi said...

It is not only in Hinduism. Even in my religion, we find useless hierarchy that was shunned by the Sikh Gurus. As a result such a situation arises where the so called-Dalit Sikhs end up being exploited economically and politically. In the globalised world of today, I wish these narrow minded brigands would stop looting the minds of the society.

Priyanka said...

WOW, Didn't know there were Dalit-Sikhs!??
I am not sure what exactly were the dalits offered by these Christian missionaries other than an equality in status, maybe monetary support. Its not really possible to woo them back into Hinduism, because I don't think anybody would donate money for converting people into Hinduism whereas these Churches and missionaries are heavily funded.
And the converted Christians still have the caste tag attached to them by which they avail of reservations??! Then what was the point of converting? Why not act as equals? I don't see the point in reconverting them either. Are they reconverting them back into Dalits or Brahmins?? - (don't really care about it, just rambling).
Whats happening now is nothing but Religious Terrorism.

Vikram. said...

Thank you, IHM, for raising this issue. The most disturbing part is the attitude of the 'educated', 'broad-minded' upper caste students, if they can publicly say what they said, what do you think their thoughts are privately ? And then we blame the lower caste ppl for their 'votebanks' ? When will we learn.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Aneela 'I wish we could sit in for a psych test/profiling at a certain age and then be assigned a religion suited best to our personality.' Will make more sense then the present system.
...or have no religion? Why do we need to mention our religion anywhere at all, it's not as if all Hindus, Christians or Sikhs are alike?

@Mampi Just like these days people are quoting Gandhi to use violence against innocent converts! As if Gandhi could EVER condone killing, burning, raping of any human. They are sick in the mind?

@priyanka Religious terrorism is exactly what it is. They have discovered the power of keeping people in terror. Watch the video and hear them say, openly that they will kill if required. Why isn't Congress banning them? They are computing the vote gain or loss.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Vikram My bigggest pain comes from the fact that that Dalits have no voice, I saw them complaining and justifying unconvincingly, in broken English on TV once... a large majority are first generation learners. Talk about equality!
Adding a link to MadMomma's post where she she says she is glad her ancestors converted to Christianity.

Unmana said...

I lost my faith in God a long time ago, but it is only since that I have come to see religion as an evil. What does it do but force some people's beliefs on others, and build arbitrary heirarchies?

Indian Home Maker said...

@Unmana @Yes, that's what politics does to religion, politics makes religion Evil!

Indian Home Maker said...

@Unmana Yes, that's what politics does to religion, politics makes religion Evil!

ROTFL! Unmana I posted this comment thrice, watching Sensex at the same time, there's a lot happening on CNBC TV18 :)

Pinku said...

some very important questions you have raised.

The answers for which are as easy as they are complex to execute.

But through our blogs if we can even get people to start thinking on these lines perhaps we can make a change happen.

The Soul of Alec Smart said...

Religion justifies nothing. Not your hatred towards another's religion or caste. Not your assumed right to let/not let someone enter a place of worship. Not your fanatical belief that bombing innocent people is going to 'teach them the lesson'. Not the scarred lives of riot victims.

It's the standard gulf. The quintessential divide we are happy living with. The poor and the rich. The educated and the uneducated. The intellectual and the bimbo. The Hindu and the Muslim. Today only one of these gulfs is becoming intolerably inhuman. Tomorrow, we could actually be seen battling issues like "the poor don't have the money, so it is JUSTIFIED that they will rob the rich", "The uneducated are ruining the social infrastructure of the nation, let's so away with them" and so on.. most of which are already common statements people make today.

If there is one thing this country needs, it is extremely strict laws and speedy justice. I would like to see how many Bajrang Dal fanatics would want to brave a life of shame in the prison for this forced restoration of religion, or how many terrorists think capital punishment is an honourable way to end their lives.

Sorry for the long comment, but I feel rather strongly about this too :(

Indian Home Maker said...

@Pinku We can make a beginning by condemning all violence..

Nita said...

Indian Homemaker, I too find the caste system abhorrent but not everyone is converting because of that. If someone converts because of this, all the strength to them!
However if a person is poor and is offered money to convert, I am against it. This is very common by the way, and this practice must be stopped. Not by offering more money, or by violence but by peaceful protests. There should be a law against conversions because of monetary inducement (this money comes from abroad).
I find the practice of converting people by offering money quite irreligious and immoral.

Indian Home Maker said...

@the soul of alec smart: You said it. I agree with every word and loved your conclusion: "If there is one thing this country needs, it is extremely strict laws and speedy justice. I would like to see how many Bajrang Dal fanatics would want to brave a life of shame in the prison for this forced restoration of religion, or how many terrorists think capital punishment is an honourable way to end their lives."

Love long comments :)

Indian Home Maker said...

@Nita Reconverting to dalits is also not the answer, it will never end then. I think all dalits should be given to opportunity to discard this burden of lower castes and convert to upper castes (instead of Buddhism or Christianity) there is no other way to end caaste-ism.

Chirag said...

Well IHM, This one is sensitive.

Part 1:

Let me start at the bottom, the cast system was started because the "Kshatriya","Vaishya","Brahman"
wanted their kids to enjoy the same life etc even if they were morons. Otherwise cast was based on 'karm' and not 'janm'.

Ok they fu**ed up big time.

and I agree that we had to reap what was sowed by our idiot ancestors.

Now these so called of Pro Hindu groups who appointed them, I am Hindu and I can never relate to such people. now who does all this? I have office so I can't right? I must be some one who doen't have a job or can't get one.

Whose problem is that the state right? but if people are educated and have lifes they will think for themselves and ask some disturbing questions to the ones in power, after all politicians also want their sons and daughters to enjoy the same life etc even if they were morons.

Part 2:

I used to think religion is set of value a person chooses to have discipline in life then why is religion being sold like cheap socks, converted get some cash and a name change.

Question here, may be i am too myopic but is changing the religion really the solution, are we not solving the wrong problem.

Monika,Ansh said...

I can feel your anger in the post & it we need more people like you who feel so strongly about this. I agree with all you ahve said 100%.

I see this Casteism happening at home but mine is a very small voice & unheard.

1conoclast said...

IHM,

Very well articulated.

I specially like your statement on the Mahatma on conversion & how people like to misuse his quotes on conversion.
By the way, Mr. Jagannathan himself is one of those who uses those quotes.

I have a view on DNA that I've expressed just yesterday. I wonder if you've seen that yet?

Indian Home Maker said...

@Chirax Yeah I agree changing the religion is probably not a solution for all, I have given MadMomma's (a very popular blogger)link so you can read how at least some people are happy they converted.

What angers me more is our patronizing, condescending, selfish attitude, towards 'them'. If we are worried about losing Hindu religion & population, why should THEY pay the price? They don't tell us to convert, then what right do we have to tell them not to convert. So if they want to buy cheap stocks that's their choice, isn't it?
And what solutions are we offering them? None.
Chirag, suggest a solution, that works for THEM, not US ?

Indian Home Maker said...

@Monika.Ansh I know many people do not agree with me either, but we are being selfish. It's a sensitive issue and most of us don't want to talk about it.
We genuinely believe that we have got better genes!
Isn't this like Slavery?

Indian Home Maker said...

@1conoclast Read your post :) We switched to DNA from TOI too, and found they are all the same!
I need to read some more of R Jagannathan's articles, this one seemed to make sense.
All Newspapers in India are equally useless/sold to news and publicity seekers. I prefer the net for real news. And, up to a limit, NDTV24X7.
I feel it is convenient to quote Gandhi incorrectly or in inaccurate contexts. It is actually implied that he would have condoned such horrible violence! By their logic Gandhi would have considered it cowardly not to burn people alive for converting?!

Shilpa said...

Wow! Really do we need all this nonsense when there are so many important things afflicting our country and the world?
You have put it all down very well. Its the poor and the weak who get bullied by these so-called protectors of hinduism! Let us tell them our religion doesnt need anyone to protect. Infact as far as I know, Hinduism is not a religion, its a philosophy, a way of life. Since when are we not allowed to change our way of life, the way we please? The worst part is, it is not the uneducated, the ignorant who are bullying other. These Hindutva types are highly educated people. I guess education sometimes comes with a price. It gives you so much pride that you forget being compassionate and logical!

Imp's Mom said...

you just spoke my mind here, I've been thinking about the same thing last few days... and is banning really the answer, they should be tried in court. but before that we need a stringent judiciary.

The thing is that I cannot even begin to imagine how a human being can inflict so much pain and still not remain affected by it... all in the name of religion. We are all humans, irrespective of our color and caste and religion.

Don't these so called human beings and protector of our religion have any conscience? Right now I'd just like to call my self an Indian rather than a Hindu.

p.s sorry abt the mini post, just got carried away...maybe i'd just do up a post too..

Indian Home Maker said...

@Shilpa Exactly my feelings! Do we need them to protect our religion? Who gave them the authority to object to conversions or to kill, on our behalf?

Indian Home Maker said...

@Imp's Mom, Mini posts make my day :)) I am also not able to understand all this cruelty,and can you imagine all this is done with moral righteousness!
I also always say I am an Indian first, and an Indian always. If we don't say this, then we will never live in peace:(

Kislay said...

Casteism in its present form is the single greatest evil of Hindu society and needs to be abolished completely . It is destroying Hinduism . And why blame just the Hindutva types alone ? What about the religious heads of Hinduism , who in the first place should have done something about it ? Why don't they start a reformist movement to purge the religion ? And are not the New Life evangelists wrong as well . Everywhere I go on the blogosphere , people are mostly blasting away BD/VHP . They have every right to do so . But what about the people who provoked ? They distributed pamphlets insulting Hindu Gods . Isn't that worth condemning . Did they not exploit the same section that is being preyed upon by the "Hindutva types" ? The fact is that both the groups have been equally diabolical , but I see people siding with either one of them . Why is that ? You don't get to hear about the Swamijee's murder anymore nor do you hear about the pamphlets , whether they really exist or not . Why do we get a filtered down version of truth , whatever it is ?

Indian Home Maker said...

@We will never know the complete truth. Each side will tell their version. Only thing we can be certain of is that we cannot use violence against innocent people.
Whatever the provocation, they cannot kill. Violence is just not on. Read Nita's post today, where she compares SIMI to BD.
But this post is also about reconversion, but not back to dalits, I wonder (since we want them so badly) why we can't convert them to upper castes? Is the thought difficult to digest?

Just call me 'A' said...

it's obnoxious how much is done in the name of religion. does'nt matter which religion...if we dig enough we'll find exploitation in every caste, every strata of society and every religion. but of course the poor i agree suffer more. I think everyone should be allowed to choose their 'own' god. ahhh but only if it was that simple!

unreligiously 'A'

cluelessness said...

You would be surprised to know, one of my classmates at school obtained a "fake" dalit certificate to get admissions into one of the prestigious colleges. So yes, people are ready to call themselves dalit on paper to get the quota.

When we have true separation of religion and state, only then will conversions be because of belief vs getting add-on perks.

Rhett said...

Yea... I quite agree on that one, however, I have one point to make.

Clearly speaking, I think that the violence by Bajrang Dal is a response to shrouded-in-mystery-and-doubt Christian proselytizing (much like its Islamic counterpart), with an eye to garner Hindu vote. But the violence does not by implication make Christian proselytizing any holier than it is.

Christian proselytizing, and the economic backwardness of those who convert -- and thus can be exploited -- are issues, the solutions to which the state should have found a long time back. It is precisely that worm that had been left unchecked to grow.

Rhett

roop rai said...

my issue is not with people converting but it is with those who provide help ONLY in exchange of conversions.

well written as usual. :)

sunder said...

I was a blogger in yahoo360..now i am confining myself to reading & commenting on blogs ...since i live in muscat ( Indian) i get to read lot of blogs on Islam...itis refreshing to me to read a blog about hinduism...though a HIndu, not much into GOD etc..i feel one had to be good and do good deeds and for that i dont need GOD...

coming to your blog..my answers to your query are
1. no words to describe
2. no way
3.no way
4. Religion is not about wooing...any religion should not woo others..the basic problem lies in wooing...that case everybody proclaims that their religionis the best..problem starts...
5.banning a orgn will not serve..they will change the name of the orgn..
6. i feel nobody is against conversion per se..what these orgn are perplexed are about forced conversion...
7.i dont remember i have entered my religion in face book..
8. to convert to dalit? the question has its answer na..well the whole problem lies..we humans respect others on certainm criteria..age, qualif, religion etc etc..
9.very bad..
10. if you face humiliation yes...

now coming to your point...see all these orgn are trying to convert based on the weakness HInduism has...the best answer is not woo them back..may be it is time to rewrite the caste system..since hinduism has no one common scripture ...it has observed whatthe times have followed..like sati..it started somewhere and ended somewhere...

for your info , even among christians there are so many sects and difference...similiarly for islam also..saudi person will not treat other arabs on par..do u think it is possible for saudi man to marry a omani girl? so many restrictions..for ex there are religious police in saudi..there was a fire in a school...since the girls are not allowed to comeout showing their hair..the religious police prevented them from coming out of school. ..they died.i read this in a blog...

here in oman where i live also there are so many sects..based on the region...balushi, zanzibars et cetc..do you think everybody respects equally....among them some are treated as higher...

Every religion has its own pitfalls...so it is hightime we Hindus realise these pitfalls and change them..are we ready?

myheadtrip said...

Well, I would say I am an atheist...or tend towards that with everything happening in my personal life. I am a brahmin; but honestly I never knew that others were of different caste until I had to fill some form in middle school. I had absolutely no idea; but there were some friend of mine saying...you don't know what caste you are!? I am MBC or BC. I had no idea what to fill. I had to ask my teacher who also happened to be a family friend what I must fill there. It was then I realised that many of my OC (we are no longer FC ;) ) friends also did not know this but most of the others did. Is it that our parents did not teach us about the said caste system? To all of us, it was then that reality struck. I accept many suffer in the name of caste in addition to poverty. Though, my view is enough already. Stop! Why carry on the caste system itself?! When I ask my friends in the US, come back to India - it is your country. Their answer; what come back and not get admission for our kids in college because of caste?! To me I abhor the reservation system. I distinctly remember when I was apping to colleges, I went to a premier college here to ask for the status -the lady there was like u are a Brahmin, does not matter if your percentage is in the 90s; you will not get a seat here! So, I really don't care if there is God or not, I don't care what way you follow to pursue your enlightenment or whatever...If we preach equality, follow it in every damn way. Convert to brahmin / dalit ...why? Be just a Hindu/Christian or Muslim. No castes, no hierarchy. No privileges to caste or minorities...let it be on equal ground based on merit. This is my take on castes. I guess I have a very strong view point on this. I have many so-called lower caste friends...I seriously did not know that until the said event. And that did not change our friendship.

myheadtrip said...

I do condemn all the violence. I don't know if I had included it in that or not!

Imp's Mom said...

Absolutely IHM, we really ought to start identifying ourselves as Indians, by our country of origin rather than our religion and caste..

we need to abolish casteism rather than ban the terror outfits

manju said...

Certainly a disturbing and complex issue.
.
Casteism is a blot upon Hindu culture and we should all fight against it.
This would be easier if we did not mention caste. However, the situation in India is that we have to mention our caste on every form that we fill right from KG class.
I remember when I refused to write our caste on my son's admission form at school (many yrs ago now), the teacher filled it in herself!

Coversions to Christianity by Hindus of lower castes are unfortunately understandable. But they often later find that the stigma of their caste does not go away after converting.

Sometimes people are tricked into converting. I personally know of a couple of incidents in my home town where the poor parents of sick children were converted because local Christians persuaded them that their children would recover only if they were baptised.

That said- I feel neither conversions nor reconversions should be by bribery, trickery or force. If Hindus neglect these poor people and do not help them in their time of need they truly do not have the right to dictate what religion they should follow.

Far too long a response, but difficult to write in brief!

Sindhu said...

I don't think I'll ever understand the full complications of living within a caste-ist society, especially since I'm quite ignorant on the effects of being identified according to one's caste, but all of it sounds rather awful to me. I'm sure castes and the segregation of people according to their occupations (or castes) had some sort of reason for existing in yesterday's society (otherwise why did it even come about?!), but why are Indians still harping on it today? It baffles me that the young and educated Indians are still soaked in caste-ism, despite how "open-minded" and knowledgeable they might seem about everything else.

(P.S - You have a great blog here!)

Indian Home Maker said...

@just call me A -I agree everyone should be allowed to choose their own god. How can we sitting here decide that they should not convert? What about their fundamental rights?

Indian Home Maker said...

@Cluelessness What your friend did was wrong. And don't we have laws to protect women? Why? Because after centuries of suppression they do need the law to protect them from socially accepted injustice (against polygamy, sexual harassment, child custody and the unpopular Domestic Violence Act), similarly since Dalits have been suppressed and are still looked down upon, and are still being exploited, like your friend there must be thousands of us taking their seats with false certificates?

Your friend did not convert, you know this just a fake certificate...you know he/she is still upper caste.

Reservations with extra seats added, being tried in many places, would be an option? This post is more about giving them the freedom to choose who they worship.

Indian Home Maker said...

Rhett I have nothing against proper inquiries being made to find out what this happening. I am only against our assumption that we can make them stay Hindus, who are we to decide they should be reconverted- by force, and by terror tactics?
Since government is doing nothing against 'Christian proselytizing, and the economic backwardness of those who convert ' - Our opposition to conversions is all the sanction that bajrang-dal needs.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Roop We have rich Hindu temples who are doing nothing for them, except stopping them from entering the premises. Either they open their coffers or somebody else will.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Sunder //though a HIndu, not much into GOD etc..i feel one had to be good and do good deeds and for that i dont need GOD...// Wonderfully put, I am the same.

Tell me how do we 'rewrite the caste system'?
I know about divisions in Christianity, but there no inferior, untouchable outcasts there.

Yes, I know about Saudi Arabia and how women are treated there, and it is true that injustice is everywhere but thank fully here in India we can fight injustice.

//banning a orgn will not serve..they will change the name of the orgn..//
We should not ban Terrorist organisations?

We object to their being paid to convert but we accept their being terrorized into reconverting?

churningthewordmill said...

this is a really complex topic...which in no way means i dont know my stand on it... i think people are free to chose their religion...if they want to convert into another religion, no one really has the right to stop them or to try to convert them back or any such thing. this is a free country ...if u can chose your profession and the city you live in and a hundred other things, then why cant u choose ur religion too?
and mampi's comment was a surprise.. i had no clue sikhism had castes too..

D said...

I'm always sitting on the fence about religious conversions. And I have to agree with Priyanka about how the lure of money is so attractive for people who convert to Christianity. So I wouldn't say that it's the system of a relgion that has forced people to turn to another.

On the other hand, the attempts to re-convert them back to Hinduism is either barbaric or juvenile. And totally unacceptable.

As a Hindu, I haven't seen the ugly face of Hinduism that people talk about. I haven't been subjected to caste discrimination nor have I seen it meted out to anyone around me. And I hate it when fundamentalists malign my religion by acting the way they do in the name of my religion.

I believe your faith and religion is a very personal thing. The moment you bring it in the public sphere, it creates problems. The sad part it that that's the only way our politicians know how to survive!

nimis540 said...

IHM,I ahve been carefully watching the discussion moving forward..I want to share my view,which i did in my blog,as a reply to a reader who said that i am talking for hindu-free india,when i talk against barbarism against christianity and that tax payers money is lost when government gives compensation to these victims(5 lakhs)..I hope you don't mnd me copy-pasting..Rewriting this may take away some intented message..Sorry ok...

***********

"Why do you assume that i want a hindu-free india..We already discussed on who a hindu is..I am a hindu too,just that i don’t follow hinduism..And by talkng about these terrorists,i don’t mean to eradicate hindus as a whole from the surface of this earth..By talking against jihadists,do you imply that all muslims whould be killed or thrown out of india?No rihgt?The same way,i am talking against all terrorists,so called islamic and hindu terrorists who dirupt normal functioning of scoiety by killing people..


If you go through the comments,you can see that I am against the missionaries who expolit the tribal’s helplessness..But killing the missionaries doesn’t help the cause..You kill these 10 missionaries,100 more will come tomorrow..You kill the 100,1000 more will come next day and they will get more mileage by sympathy waves,and more resources in the form of money and manpower..Instead of killing,try to work on the tribal’s part and have setups for their food and health and education and all..You can see the whole of missionaries packing their back and leaving the place..all by themselves.


You are happy,tribals are happy..and everything is fine and peaceful..

But instead of that,raping and buring nuns and others will only upset the system more..Don’t you think this act will help draw more forigen funds?don’t you think this will lead them to ahve more sympathay and get more followers?Well,is that waht you want?No right?then please stop the barabrism and act wise..

Regarding the money,i believe much more money is being wasted in political party’s protests by dmamgin public property and time and money…Leave aside all those money spent of religious travel packages spent on various sectors of people,and etc etc costs,a single day’s Bandh or Harthal will cost crores and the compensation given to these tribals is nothing when compared to the damage done by political partie’s strikes …So we need not worry about compensation..Atleast soembody is eating some food and wearing clothes using our tax and i am content with that..

And pls tell me do you imply a muslim-free or christain-free india ,when you talk against jihadists? If not,i am also not implying to have to hindu-free india when i talk against hindu terrorists..I hope i made sense.."

*******************

Manish Raj said...

Hi IHM

We all know, what happens in India 'in' the name of religion is never 'for' the religion. Answers to your questions are obvious.

Your blog is a good attempt to convert one's personal feeling into Group's feeling. With this you have grouped so many like minded people.

Social changes in country like India can never be dramatic but people like us need to sow the seeds of change.

Great work !!
Manish

Indian Home Maker said...

@my head trip - Most Indians are very caste conscious even now. Why aren't we reconverting them to Brahmins? Take away their one grouse against Hinduism, perform the thread ceremony, instead of making them drink gau mutra while reconverting them?
Why don't we?
Even if everybody thought like you (and I)the fact remains that most dalits are first generation learners, poor and way behind the upper castes, they face prejudice everywhere, even in Urban India. For centuries they were denied education and entry to temples, and should be given a chance to come to the same level as the rest of us. Our politicians have exploited the situation as usual - but I think many institutions now have added the same number of seats as are being reserved. That is a positive step.

Just think, despite everything, despite all the resentment you feel, will you really exchange places with a dalit? Isn't the prejudice deep rooted? And look all around you, how many successful middle class Indians are dalits even today?

All I am saying is we have no right to sit in our homes and condemn conversions when we are doing nothing to help them. If we want Hinduism to survive we must act to uplift, not to kill or condemn.

Indian Home Maker said...

@D Exactly my thoughts. So long as justice is done and nobody is exploited, I won't complain. I fear it would be selfish if I would rather have them die as hungry Hindus than live as converted Christian.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Manju //If Hindus neglect these poor people and do not help them in their time of need they truly do not have the right to dictate what religion they should follow.//

Exactly my views :)
Loved your long comment, do comment again!

Indian Home Maker said...

@Sindhu Welcome :) Yes it is awful! The best would be if the society were totally caste less, but caste is everywhere.
I think inter caste, inter region and inter religion marriages, which young people don't mind, but parents object to, will eventually bring about a change, it will be faster if our fundamentalists & politicians don't create hatred.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Imp's Mom - Until the caste system is abolished do we let the terror outfits kill and burn? You know what they are doing in Orissa? Can we allow that!

And how do we abolish the caste system?
I suggested we only reconvert the converts into upper castes....

Indian Home Maker said...

@Nimmy //Instead of killing,try to work on the tribal’s part and have setups for their food and health and education and all..You can see the whole of missionaries packing their back and leaving the place..all by themselves.//
Yes isn't it so simple? Why can't they understand?
Exactly my views :)

Indian Home Maker said...

@Manish Raj -
Wonderful words of encouragement.

Thank You :)

PS And isn't it a pleasure to see nearly all of us want peace not violence?

Indian Home Maker said...

@Mandira Hi and welcome back:)
You ask, //this is a free country ...if u can chose your profession and the city you live in and a hundred other things, then why cant u choose ur religion too?//

Delighted to see someone asking this!
This is a question we all need to ask.

myheadtrip said...

I don't condemn conversions.Religion is one's personal thing totally.As I said, I am against the whole caste system. Btw, am married to a non-Brahmin....so most probably my son will not have the thread ceremony done.Do I really care? No.
I am feeling resentful about reservations in higher education. If a dalit has come up to that level, then if he/she deserves the seat, it should be out of merit; not because he/she was born in some caste...and then they further this by reservations for jobs too!! I understand many dalits are first generation learners. Having become learners, do the job right; learn right, score high enough...don't depend on the reservation to get ur seat. About the poor thing, fine make it merit and means scholarship.
Would I change places with a dalit? Why not? I get an education reservation, reservation at jobs...my kid will benefit. He can get away with minimal effort, and still be whatever...It is way better to be one right now rather than be a Brahmin. Way more beneficial. I live in a metro. Yes I am oblivious to atrocities in smaller places...I have grown up with people around me totally caste ignorant until it came to filling in forms. Either totally abolish the caste system, make it illegal to ask for caste...or make it equal ground for all. How long are you going to go on with reservations?!
I had read in some mag article long back...every religion you are inducted into it through baptism or such ceremonies. Only in Hinduism, you are born into the religion. You can follow the religion but cannot convert into a Hindu. Hinduism prides in being not a religion but a way of life. It definitely has evolved.
Poverty is a problem. Luring people into religion making use of the oppression and poverty is a problem. We can keep talking and debating. There will be numerous such things on small levels of the living room to huge conferences. Will there be any result? The skeptic in me says no. These will go on, people will keep living their lives however they have led it so far. Each to his own. "I have enough troubles in my life!" attitude will prevail.

Indian Home Maker said...

@myheadtrip
1. I don't condemn conversions.Religion is one's personal thing totally.As I said, I am against the whole caste system.

2.Either totally abolish the caste system, make it illegal to ask for caste...or make it equal ground for all.

I am totally with you on both these :)

Canary said...

Wow! well-put
Somehow religion for me always meant a set of tried and tested rules and principles which people followed in the past, it worked for them and made their life better and happier so they passed it on to their children... And I fail to understand why it has become so much more than that! Why has it become "Is your better than mine?" :|

Indian Home Maker said...

@Canary Yes that is how it should be :) ... but everywhere we find religion had become a means to play power games, it's always been like that I guess.
We must make sure they don't start telling us how to live our lives, and definitely not violently!

Mavin said...

Wow - 60 comments and going strong and what a wide range of responses.

These subjects seem to touch a raw nerve somewhere and there are widespread reactions.

Just one point - We who stay in cities have a very different and perhaps liberal perspective and are lucky to lead a reasonably comfortable life.

To a large extent we are quite cut-off from ground realities. We rarely understand what really ignites tensions between people leave alone the other socio-economic factors of people in affected areas.

Our opinions are formed based on what we are fed in the form of daily media reporting. Our media is free but not always truthful or unbiased.

Let us preserve the founding principles of our democracy but we must retain a sense of proortion in this "Breaking News" type of a world where temporary sensationalism is valued much.

Indian Home Maker said...

@mavin Completely agree with you. But don't you think the Bajrang Dal would have denied any reconversions by now, they are insisting that they will continue to save this religion.
Even if we believe the media is completely biased, we all know they are aggressive and violent in the cities, you think they will change their tactics and become non violent in remote areas?
And lastly do you really believe they are not violent?

Mama - Mia said...

i think religion has become SUCH a dirty word and i would love to see a world without any!

but then i am sure we have have our second line of prejudices ready.

i think what religion someone wants to follow or doesnt want to is completely an individual call and others have no right to say anything! forget getting violent about it!

and if religion is bad, casteism is worse! i am so not OK with reservations based on caste! make it economical and thats about it.

everytime we add quotas based on religion and caste we make the chasm deeper and wider!

i hope we can teac our kids more tolernace and hope they will make this owrld a better place! :)

great post IHM! Like always!

\cheers!

abha

Chirag said...

IHM, I can suggest a solution, but then I would have to bill you :)

Monika said...

u are tagged :) come over to my blog and check it out

Indian Home Maker said...

@Chirag hehheh that's what I also say when I have no solutions :)

Indian Home Maker said...

@Mama Mia I agree with you, it does seem that religion is causing a lot of problem, but actually it is not religion as much as intolerance and aggression. We are finding excuses to pick fights- language, religion, caste :(
Maybe making caste totally illegal - even any asking of caste or any discrimination based on caste and then make reservation, for the economically backward. Like it is against the law to discriminate against the African Americans....

Mavin said...

It is very easy, with the use of appropriate words, to potray something that is not and vice-versa.

They (BD) profess to be aggressive but I do not know who initiated it or who retaliated, who murdered or raped.....It is easy to pin it on any one and then keep hammering the same point.

As the Nazis said, a lie repeated a thousand times becomes the truth. Who is to decide what is the truth and what is not? I sitting two thousand kms away certainly cannot.

We read about churches in TN and Kerala also being vandalised. The Sangh parivar has no toehold in these states neither does BJP have any political presence in these states.

Why are there no headlines from these states? Why only from Karnataka? Our reactions to events in these states are muted or not there because the media has chosen not to highlight these incidents and therefore the gravity of the situation escapes our notice.

Orissa, I understand, is different due to widespread rioting and killing.

My only point is let us take things in perspective. Whilst violence has to be put down ruthlessly and there can be no debate on this, we also need to be aware that things are not always as they appear.

Think about it......and it is perfectly fine if your view point is different.

Cheers!!!

Indian Home Maker said...

@ Mavin You say,
//It is very easy, with the use of appropriate words, to portray something that is not and vice-versa.//
What can be vice versa? That BD is violent? You mean they are being killed by the Christian minority in Orissa? Or that the lower castes have been abusing the upper castes?

//They (BD) profess to be aggressive but I do not know who initiated it or who retaliated, who murdered or raped.....It is easy to pin it on any one and then keep hammering the same point.//
See, Christians are taking shelter in the refugee camps and Churches are being burnt and BD is not denying reconverting, in fact they challenged the government to try to stop them... why would we want to believe the opposite? There has to be some reason for doubt..no?

//As the Nazis said, a lie repeated a thousand times becomes the truth. Who is to decide what is the truth and what is not? I sitting two thousand kms away certainly cannot.//
My next post is about Hitler and Nazis, how we should not be in a hurry to quote the NAZIS. I am sure we or BD are not trying to emulate them!
And are you saying BD workers are being killed by Christians and BJP is sitting and meekly watching!!! That is why we have a Democracy, so that if that does happen our dear humble ahimsawadi BJP will give us all a headache with their shrill bandhs and protest marches :)

//We read about churches in TN and Kerala also being vandalised. The Sangh parivar has no toehold in these states neither does BJP have any political presence in these states. Why are there no headlines from these states? Why only from Karnataka? Our reactions to events in these states are muted or not there because the media has chosen not to highlight these incidents and therefore the gravity of the situation escapes our notice...//
Could it be because the scale of violence is not very high, because it is promptly controlled by non BJP governments? We accept smaller acts of vandalism and arson as daily news and nobody cares. Only when violence takes large proportion do we wake up...maybe that is why?


//Orissa, I understand, is different due to widespread rioting and killing.//
This post is about the violence and reconversions in Orissa for which BD has claimed full credit.

//My only point is let us take things in perspective. Whilst violence has to be put down ruthlessly and there can be no debate on this, we also need to be aware that things are not always as they appear.//
Mavin, my only point was that violence has to be put down ruthlessly. I am glad you feel the same way.

//Think about it......and it is perfectly fine if your view point is different.//
About violence and BD needing to be dealt with firmly, I fully agree with you :) We all want peace and prosperity, not vote politics, violence and divisive political games. I hope all of us realise how dangerous this can be, these kind of Frankenstein grow beyond control very fast...

Think about it and I realise you will not agree completely, of course :)
What is that quote about disagreeing...??
'I may not agree with with the Right wing, but I would still defend their right to disagree' .. something like this :)

Ajit said...

One thing people must realize that division of people is a universal phenomenon, whether it is our stupid caste system or the eternal divide between the Shiites and Sunni’s. There is not a single country in the world which can claim that there is no division amongst its citizens. Even in the US, it propagates in the form of racism and Class differences or on what church they follow.
Even in India, I have heard of reports where the lower caste converts into Christianity (in Tamil Nadu) were marginalized by the other Christians in certain places.

Conversion is always a tricky topic to speak on. On one hand, I absolutely feel that it is a fundamental right of every INDIAN to choose his religion. But again, I need to make a couple of points:

1. I am from Kerala, where we have all lot of sects of Christians which include Penta Costal, Charismatic Penta Costal etc and I have personally seen followers of many of them going on “TRYING TO CONVERT” missions like they have a target or a deadline to meet. There can be no denying of this side of the story as well.
2. The poor are often the victims (or should I say the people who are converted) as in any issue. By patronizing, you are actually condescending which is not good.


This is one side which people tend to ignore so I thought I should mention them.
On the other hand, I absolutely condone what the Bajrang Dal and the Hindutva movement are doing to India.
As a consequence of all this bullshit, the sensitive fabric called secularism is what is getting destroyed and the “Aam Aadhmi” the victim.

@IndianHomeMaker – I’ve thought long and hard, but there just seems to be no solution in sight. But yes, the Bajrang Dal definitely needs to be banned.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Ajit //I’ve thought long and hard, but there just seems to be no solution in sight. But yes, the Bajrang Dal definitely needs to be banned.//
I agree :)

writerzblock said...

I am completely against preying upon any community.

But while we talk about the unfairness of it all, let me point out that its the 'supposedly' forward-caste Hindus who are at a COMPLETE DISADVANTAGE when it comes to admissions in schools and colleges! With reservations for every other caste and community eating up a chunk of the seats in all colleges, it is finally the Hindu brahmins who are the real minority now. While the minority communities can get away with a 65% result in their board exams, forward caste students need to clear atleast 95%,and fight among themselves and the ones with the 'influential' phone calls and letters, to gain even a college seat.

No, its not about religion anymore - religion is only an excuse - to wreck havoc. And the trouble makers come from all castes/races/religion.

I wish the world was a computer, we could just try to reboot.

Mavin said...

IHM - Let me join issue with you again:-)

To say that only BD is indulging in violence is a travesty of fact. Both sides have hands stained with blood. Both initiation and retaliation has happened.

It is here I say I do not know who started it.....Media says BD, is it true??? Now we hear that there is a long history of tension between two tribes. You might say that is a fig leaf invented - I might say it is a possibility and now has been twisted into a communal problem.

Next attacks in TN and Kerala still continue. This has happened time and again over the last one month. Is the administration apathetic or slow moving or the media sees it as of no value because the attempt is always to paint the BJP with a black brush.

I thought Kerala with a high Christian population would have moved swiftly.

Now to look at a different perspective for the simmering.

Social harmony and acceptance of all religions with respect is possible when people have fruitful vocations to follow and can sleep with their tummy full.

In India, if you see since Independence, it is also a question of fair allocation of resources for development. Some states have come ahead and others lagged and erstwhile leaders have fallen by the wayside (eg W Bengal)

Real or imagined discrimination is always used to polarise opinion and disrupt social harmony. Almost every state has gone through this stage - Assam, North-East, Punjab....

The seeds for such conflict are sown many years prior to the volcano erupting. Our responses tend to be typical and very symptomatic.

I could write a volume on this but as you said we agree to disagree and you shall fight with anyone to protect my right to disagree.

We can have this tete-a-tete on some other post.

Cheers!!! :-)

cluelessness said...

@Indian home maker:

I agree that there has been suppression of dalits, but honestly do you think reservation is the answer? I don't think that the people who truly require the help are getting it via reservation. For example, do you think the dalit IAS officer's son needs a reserved seat to make up for his poor performance in spite of being sent to the best schools? And yet, he is the one who is going to take that reserved seat because the poor tribals living in an place where progress has no effect don't even get basic education to compete for that seat.

I would definitely vote for the underprivileged being given extra help, free education, etc. But for that coveted engineering or medicine seat, they will need to compete like everyone else. And yes, this applies to women also. We do not have diminished brain capacity to have "special" seats because we could not compete with the best and survive. We can, and we do everyday.

Chirag said...

Hi IHM, Do not get me wrong, No I do not say that when I have no solution rather the helplessness of my state that even, though the solution is simple and out there, it may never be implemented due to various reasons.

Commerce and politics are the main cause of most of the problem its a strive between the Profit Maximization and Being in Control (Power)
As you stated, "Yes, that's what politics does to religion, politics makes religion Evil!"

We have established that conversion is based on two-way profit.
a) Incentives to people who convert - Commission
b) Incentives to people who get converted - Monthly Salary + Benefits + Status

Now this is a transaction and there is no way a mutually beneficially trade can be broken unless something better is given in exchange. We need to provide "lower cast' community Education, Jobs and hence self respects.

Proposed Solution:
1. Legally stop the classification
2. Let the process be in the background(Reservations, admissions etc).
3. Provide incentives
3.1 Making sure the elite colleges situated near areas where there is dense populations
3.2 Giving the easier entrepreneurial loans
3.3 Special program to Educate women, they will in turn make sure their kids are educated cyclic reactions
3.4 Open up more sections in Kendriya Vidhylaya
3.5 Make sure IIM and IIT and others have a one internship project(compulsory) aimed at development on India, this will mask the issue under a larger umbrella and you'll have at least 10 smartest brains working seriously because its there grade
4. Provide decent enough health care
5. Develop infrastructure
6. Communicate what their rights are and where can sound grievances
7. Answer at least 75% of the grievances


I know this may never be implemented, all we can do is instigate a though process in the minds of bloggers and readers, who when powerful enough to make a change do.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Chirag - Brilliant!!!! It isn't impossible to implement, but there has to be the political will to do it!
And I always say that our State run medical colleges should make it compulsory for their alumni to serve in remote/rural areas for five years (the same way defence officers have to sign a twenty year bond). They earn their degrees with the taxes we pay, they better pay back partly at least. This does not apply to private colleges, because we are not funding their education. Advantages? Only those who can't afford private education or are willing to repay by signing this bond will come to state run colleges, thus making these seats available to other needy students.

Indian Home Maker said...

@Mavin :)