Let me try to explain.
Unlike the Raja in Vikram Seth’s ‘Suitable Boy’, BJP is real.
Unlike Taliban, BJP directly affects us.
When we were in college, BJP were just a gang of Hindu Fundamentalist wannabe leaders. We heard one Joshi claim girls should not wear jeans. He seemed like someone desperately trying to get attention. They still talk like that, but now people are listening. No mobiles and no inter-religious marriages in Madhya Pradesh is taken seriously. This goes down very well, with some worried Indian parents. BJP Vice President, Naqwi’s lipstick and powder comment created an uproar. But we forget they came to power with such meaningless statements.
All this begins almost harmlessly.
I am not very religious at all, but I quite like being Hindu. To be honest I love it. I love the fact that we are free to discuss, analyze, interpret and criticize (and that’s an understatement!) our faith. I find it sweet that we can converse, bargain, negotiate and even refuse to pray to a God, if a wish is not granted. I like it that we can decide how our God is, and mine is a kindly, protective, genderless power. I love the fact we can ask a TV channel showing Ramayana, not to show Sita’s abandonment. Basically there is nothing FUNDAMENTALIST about Hinduism. WAS. Then came BJP. And a loved and loving religion was hijacked by vote politics.
My daughter in a Christian School in Kerala actually had Ramayana added as part of the curriculum. Were they coerced to add it, directly or indirectly I have no idea. But I did not want something as personal as religion being taught in school. I am not going to discuss what I have against Ramayana - let's just say my daughter is not going to grow up thinking a woman's destiny lies in 'obedience' and 'sacrifice'. (Indian schools being Indian schools I helped her with Home Work and undid any damage these classes could have done).
BJP's abuse of Hindusim resulted in, till then lovable names like Bajrang and Hanuman, becoming symbols of vandalism and rioting. All to achieve their political (vote) purposes.
Then they used Hinduism, to burn a father and his two sons in a jeep. And to my horror Instead of the obvious and expected condemnation of something so heinous, I heard some Hindus justifying this in the name of religion, a much respected Prime Minister (I heard him myself) instead of unequivocally condemning this gruesome killing, talked of ‘national debate on conversions’ – what was worse, he really seemed to believe in what he was saying. The thought of two little boys being burnt alive with their father by some anti-social elements - can we ever, EVER justify it? How does a crime NOT REMAIN A CRIME JUST BECAUSE IT IS DONE IN THE NAME OF RELIGION? How did some Indians become so blinded by hate speeches of some very good orators?
When they first talked of Hindutwa we didn’t even take it seriously. In 1987, they justified Roop Kanwar’s burning on her hubands’s pyre, the BJP, as the upholder of Hindu traditions, argued that this was Rajput tradition and that any law that prevented the community from following such traditions would be opposed. Such odd fundamentalist voices are always heard in every society and one didn’t care and one was glad these kind of people will never come to power. And they never would have. So they decided to demolish an unheard of Masjid, even as alternatives and options were being considered. There was nothing religious about this demolition, it was all about VOTES.
Twice I have traveled with one of their leaders, he was not in power then, and everybody joked about how safe we all were because he and his black cats were traveling with us. Nobody went to ask him for autographs. This was before Babri Masjid.
Second time in April-May 1997. This time little children were sent to him for autographs, and he gave them some Party cards. What had changed? Did they manage to feed a hundred hungry children during this time gap? NO. They had managed to destroy the feeling of brotherhood of Amar Akbar Anthony and worked up hatred and brotherhood of victimhood amongst the peace loving Hindu majority. The BJP, VHP and BD made themselves look like the saviors of the Hindus. They will kill, rape and burn to make sure the Dalits stay Dalits and not convert to Christians. Can't we see, that they are not doing it for us, not even for the Hindutva that they claim to save. They are doing this because there's no chance of any Christians voting for BJP, so it suits them to either kill them or reconvert them to Hindus. And of course it keeps the brotherhood of victimhood alive.
There had been no terrorists attacks till then. So the BJP had to go a few centuries back to find reasons to make us hate some Indian citizens.
I, with two babies of 6 and 22 months, was in a train from Delhi to Bombay via Surat on the night of 6th-7th (or was it the 8th?) Dec 1992. The train that was almost completely empty. Everybody knew what was going to follow? Were there terrified mothers in our Sovereign Socialist Secular Democratic Republic hugging their baby girls and baby boys tight and wishing they had never brought them into this horrible world, not because they were miles from home in an empty train, but because they were not safe even inside their homes, with husbands, brothers, grand parents? Did drunk mobs enter their homes, and did they deserve what followed? I made a million promises to God that night. The few other passengers were sure we would come to no harm, Surat and Mumbai were generally not prone to rioting. Till then.
Did the common man – the voter, join the hate filled rioting and killing? NO. It was our various Senas, named so blasphemously after gods who fought for justice. But Hindus did not seem to be objecting. The worst of the nightmare ended for me after forcing my way into an ambulance parked amidst broken glass, and footwear scattered on the empty roads outside Bombay VT. But somewhere unspeakable things were being done to some innocent children and women because they did not worship any of the Gods I did. Then a blogger asks me why I love Congress!!! I don't love Congress, I just hate BJP more.
BJP has two main things in common with Taliban. It's ideology of using religion for power and it's violence.
Suppression of Dalits, Christians, Muslims and women follows automatically. We can easily compare their destruction of a Maszid to that of Buddhas of Bamyan in Afghanistan. Fundamentalism can never be Democratic. Fundamentalism can never lead to prosperity, it might lead to 'selective' prosperity. It can also lead to silencing of voices of protests.
In countries where children are looking for food in garbage heaps, destruction of Babri Maszid and Budhdha’s statues could never be genuine issues. Those who have any respect for their religion or God do not USE it to kill innocent citizens.
Edited to add: Please do sign this plea to postpone the Orissa Bandh on Christmas Day. [The link emailed by another blogger who beleives in peace.]
Edited to add, Dec 19th: THE BANDH HAS BEEN CALLED OFF!
112 Reactions:
These are very strong words, I don't quite know if I agree to everything you have said.. But I guess that is what happens when some one calls a spade, a spade.
I particularly remember babri masjid demolition, i was in my teens then, unnecessary is one word to describe the act. But whole India burned.
I particularly remember our fashion show in 12th standard when the Bajrang Dal activists wouldn't allow us to do it, until a very powerful man had these goonda's caught by the police...
Yes not every one has such a powerful man to support them... People were butchered by these barbaric people in the name of religion...
Religions cannot be used to kill any one...for sure...
HitchWriter I agree these are strong word, I wish there was another way to say this :(
One of the promises I had made in the train that night was, that if we reach home safely I will never forget that fear - and do whatever possible - through voting, through talking, to prevent such nightmares from happening, to me or to anybody else.
WONDERFUL, WONDERFUL POST!!! Your best that I've read till date!
And not because it dissects the bjp so precisely, but because apart from being precise, it is heartfelt, personal & sends the right message out. It doesn't exhort anyone to war or killing, it just seeks to inform & educate! You've quoted from personal horror & that makes the whole thing so real. Really nice post!
I wish Kislay & Krishna would read this & understand. I am obviously not going to make much headway with them with my style of writing. :-) Hopefully you will.
If I had an award to give to post of the year, this would be it!
IHM, While I do agree with most of what you say, there are some things I do not agree with. Yes, people cannot be allowed to interpret religion in any way that suits them. And Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, VHP are all terrorists, and BJP, while I may not call them terrorist - but are certainly hardly any better.. However, I feel that congress is no better! what about the Sikh riots of 1984? What irritates me about the congress us that they claim to be secular - but are allied with parties like the Muslim League. And it was Rajiv Gandhi who restarted the Babri Masjid issue as a consolation to the Hindu majority after the Shah Bano case... Why in India should we have parties with any kind of religious alleigance? That is my issue.. To me - all these parties are eaually deplorable.. Congress with its years of votebank politics has brought about a scenario where all these 'dals' or 'sanghs' are in a position to justify their agenda of hate! Which is why - I so hope that we have an alternative. Some party clean, truly secular and with visions of bettering India.
@1conoclast Thanks :)
A lot of people will site the example of 1984 riots.Or say Gujarat was never peaceful. But I think we all know.
Kislay has condemned post-Godhra riots on his blog.
Bravo! This is your best post ever IHM! I was already convinced, but if not, this post would have converted me. Though I don't think Congress is any better (1984), they seem to have learned their lesson by now (I hope). The BJP instead sticks firmly to its agenda.
jnm... BANG ON!
smitha... way off!
I don't think the Congress can be blamed for the rise of the Hindu extremist. The movement began when savarkar first propounded hindutva. Inspired by him hedgewar started the rss. The rest as they say is history.
Facts not opinions.
So well thought out and well written. But I will have to disagree with you. Its not ONLY the BJP that exploits religious feelings for power, the Congress does that too sometimes, though not as blatantly as the BJP. I am terrified that this general election the BJP(or a coalition) is indeed going to win again. They say they have Hindus' best interests at heart, but NO, they have their party interests at heart...nothing else. The worst part is, a lot of educated middle class people actually explain away the atrocities by bringing in cheap reasons like conversions etc. If someone does not want to convert they will not. No one is forcing people to convert really!
I remember arguing with an Indian friend about this. He was adamant that 'those people' deserve what they are getting. I was horrified. Could not see eye to eye with him again.
Well, what is wrong with the Taliban? They also do what they do for "religion".
It irks us when Hindus do it...notably as u have said, when the religion is about a way of life. A religion that has evolved with time etc..,
It is all about choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea in this country I suppose and you have many devils and quite a few seas with the multi party system!!!
@ IHM
I agree with you. The BJP has a fundie history. Its sister organisations are known to be violent. I would like to hate the BJP. But the problem is, secularism in India is non-existent. Every political party panders to its own (religious) vote bank. The Congress panders to the minorities, while the BJP panders to the majority. I don't see one major political party on the national stage which is truly secular.
So, the best way to differentiate between political parties is economics (or other similar factors). The Congress is way too socialist for me. I know 1con will disagree with me here, but I hate the way the Congress stifled Indian innovation for more than four decades. I hate their communal socialism. I hate the way the current Mrs. G tried to justify bank nationalisation, a few days ago. I hate the way the Congress drags its feet on highway development.
You don't love the Congress, but hate the BJP more. The reverse applies to me. Yes, I am a libertarian when it comes to social issues. I am even opposed to a ban on drugs and stuff like gun control. I, therefore, hate the way those Senas try to impose their "traditions" on other people. But then, as you will agree with me, its about which party is the "lesser evil" from one's point of view.
(Or maybe we could just vote for Arun Bhatia?)
@ 1conoclast
You just had to take a dig at the 2Ks, innit? :D Anyways, lets not spar again here.
@ Smitha Agree, we need a new, clean party. But who is the lesser Devil?
The one who kills and preaches hatred? Or the one who maybe, MAYBE protects some minorities. But also gave us the Right to Information, Nuclear Deal and the Domestic Violence Act. The one that is not desperate for a war all the time, to get soldiers killed for vote.
Think.
@ Jottingsnmusings You are right, they do, probably because they feel this is the only way to win elections. It's our fault, we lead them to beleive we'd vote for reasons like religion :(
@myheadtrip Our vote can make them change their agendas. No? Maybe the devils and deep seas will give way and some decent leaders will emerge :)
Maybe we should have clear cut priorities, we want NO violence, and once we are, ALL OF US ARE alive, we can plan on governance also. Agree?
Can't say I agree with all you have written but I must say you have written it well, persuasively and with passion. It is not necessary to agree with everything anyway. If we did we would be the same person. :)
krishna Aradhi
//Every political party panders to its own (religious) vote bank. The Congress panders to the minorities, while the BJP panders to the majority. I don't see one major political party on the national stage which is truly secular.//
# Krishna Aradhi, pandering to their vote banks is more acceptable than killing those who are not their vote banks. We can't deny that?
//(Or maybe we could just vote for Arun Bhatia?)//
# From what I know he is an independent candidate? Right :) Sounds like a good idea!
@Nita Yes Ma'am of course :)
But still I am left curious as to what is it that you disagree with :)
Krishan,
There's much that I don't like about your avowed stance, but here's what irks me most:
You DELIBERATELY try to hide the truth. And that I cannot stand! Another thing I cannot stand is tall claims not backed up by links as proof.
So here we go again:
1. Cong. & bjp both pander? OK, granted. If that was indeed so, why was the Congress being voted (& till today) being voted for by the Hindu so-called upper castes & the so-called lower castes? Apart from the minorities? Why were the minorities not voting for their own factions (the now defunct AIML for example)? Did the Cong. pander to them better?
Why was the Cong. considered an upper-class (Brahminical if you please) party?
Was it's constitution & top-brass not all Hindu?
Why did these Hindus not fall for the pandering of the bjp?
The point I'm trying to make is this: a) The Congress may be guilty of what you like to call pandering. The fact that a mojority of Hindus were in the party & voted for it, does not back up your claims though...
b) The bjp doesn't pander. It seeks to DIVIDE! I can tolerate a panderer. I can accuse him of vote-bank politics, call him names. What tolerance can I show to someone who seeks to divide??? There is a BIG difference between being opportunistic & in acting against the unity of the nation!!! Therefore, NO to the bjp.
2. Congress stifled innovation for 4 decades, you say. Is that so? Where's your argument backed up by facts?
So the IIT's, IIM's, ISRO's, HAL's etc. were all examples of stifling innovation?
Your argument awaited... :-)
3. Yaamyn & your truly both answered your bank liberalization query. YET you bring it up again in another forum. Is this: a) Your obdurate refusal to see the truth? OR
b) Deliberate anti-Congress propaganda?
4. Yaamyn gave you figures & a link to the NHAI website, but you still repeat your stunts from 3. above! Again... Why? What's the motive? It's clear that when we talk economics you will never be able to prove the bjp's superiority over the Congress's list of achievements. Then why're you still trying?? Motive? Ulterior Motive? Or blind faith stemming from spoon-feeding?
It is about one's point of view, as you say. But it's also about what kind of glasses are assisting/impairing your "point of view".
A very hard hitting post! I generally like to look at the positive side of things, but your post has compelled me to comment. I am a born Hindu, and proud of it, but that is my personal identity. I am an Indian in the public domain. Every time an innocent gets killed, irrespective of religion, i have felt a lesser human being. I have hated riots but have not been in any position to stop them. It is true even today. This violence is an endless cycle. How do we get out of it?
I believe, at the personal level, we all need to start respecting God's creation, irrespective of his/ her religion. We must believe, and pray that 'Allah, Ishwar tero naam, subko sanmati de Bhagwan'.
At the level of society, we need to strengthen our systems - whatever they maybe. In India today, we have a 300 million middle class, and growing, which needs to get constructively engaged in nation building for change to happen. These are two suggestions that I am leaving as food for thought.
Your article has forced to think as to what kind of India I wish to handover to our younger generation, and how do I help create that India. I do believe that only WE the people have the power to affect change in this plural, democratic and diverse India. Thank you for this passionate appeal to our higher selves.
IHM, I totally agree that the Congress is the 'lesser evil', but I would still rather keep fighting for a better lot of politicians - than have to chose the 'lesser evil'. And yes, I will hope that Congress would give up the 'Gandhi' fixation and give way to the better leaders within it - then I would give it my wholehearted support. Until then, I guess, I will keep hankering after a cleaner , better party!
@ Smitha I understand and frankly, I feel the same way!! And we must hanker for cleaner and better politicians only then will we find it in our hearts to vote for newer faces. And we do so need newer faces!
@ JP Joshi Thanks for your encouraging words, I can only say I agree and am grateful that you feel this way. I totally agree that, "only WE the people have the power to affect change in this plural, democratic and diverse India."
And when we talk of Gandhi, we really should remember his, 'Ishwar, Allah tero naam, subko sanmati de Bhagwan'.
Once again, thanks for this positive comment :)
God, what a bunch of losers...
I agree with you IHM, I agree totally. My son's school (it was co-ed) forbade girls and boys sitting together or even talking to each other. They also discouraged threading and waxing. I pulled him out of that school. It starts with ridiculous things at first, but when unchecked the infection spreads
Great and Hard Hitting post.Communalism of Congress is opportunistic while that of Hindutva brigade is by definition mostly ideological. Let us hope a viable third alternative will be available soon
IHM, I found myself nodding with every word you wrote- how right, how true...
What a wonderful post. If only I could bestow awards on you.
Comparing BJP and Taliban was apt.
But Congress chamchagiri needs a mention.
To ignore and stay passive while violence and atrocities are happening is equal to violence.
Worse if your help motive is votes.
Congress, BJP and the rest political parties are hand in hand when it comes to being votesbeggars.
Oh they need our votes to rule over us.
We need to understand the power of this individually and collectively as a responsible public.
Also do you follow how all the variations of CPM and Trinamuls are affecting our daily lives in East and South? They should be banned because ppl need to work not stay on strike.
Looking for votes where??
-jobless youth getting violent by the seconds, orphan babies, hungry stomaches, handicaps, victims of terror attacks, depressed lone old one, crematoriums, burials grounds?? where??
@IHM,
Simply brilliant!!!!!!!!!! This is your best post....
The points that you have raised are pertinent.
I curse the day when these guys came up with a word which I hate.... “Hindutva”....
@ 1con
There we go again.
Congress stifled the "economy" for four decades until the PVN Rao - MMS duo came along and liberalised the economy, and that too, only because India was an inch away from bankruptcy. Maybe "economy" was the word I should have used. Remember License Raj? You disagree with my contention? I wonder what drove us to bankruptcy then.
As for innovation, I wonder how innovative the IITs are. I had read somewhere that the IITs hardly encouraged enough research. Any evidence to the contrary is welcome. And you must see the way the current UPA Govt is opening up new IITs and IIMs without proper infrastructure in place. LOL! Your favourite Congress is diluting the brand equity of these institutes.
btw, doesn't the concept of nationalisation flies in the face of liberalisation of the economy, the very concept your favourite PM called Manmohan Singh stands for? Whose DELIBERATELY trying to hide the truth here?
I don't believe in nationalisation, I believe in privatisation with proper regulations.
An article written by Sucheta Dalal in the year 2000 may help you: It's here
/// Yaamyn & your truly both answered your bank liberalization query. Yet you bring it up again in another forum.
Yes, but I never replied to your unconvincing arguments, did I? I am sure you did not check out the link I provided to support my views on bank nationalisation. It is recommended that you read up on that first. The link I gave above will also help.
Check out the link related to highway development I gave. That was what I meant even on Yaamyn's post. It wasn't the GQ, it's the whole NHDP (National Highway Development Programme) that is struggling under the UPA Govt. I've got proof now, hence I brought it up on this forum.
well with me, its a case of being " on the outside looking in"...in the late 90s when BJP swept in, I remember a friend telling me " well if you all can have a religious (read right wing) party in power, why not us" ..and my response at that time (and even now would be) I have seen the chaos mixing religion with politics has brought about and would not wish it on anyone else. Frankly, and I know what I say reeks of " biological determinism" and is very simplistic...we all are not " mature" enough to mix the two...thoda intellectualy develop hona hoga, wish we could give an exam before " qualifying" for a religious identity..and well as far as Congress goes, I cant comment on the 1984 bit..but I can say what frustrates me as an observer (and a Pakistani Muslim) is that it indulges the ' worst' of the minority groups..I get tired of the 70 year old " adaab arz" political reps. Are there no young Turks in the community? Or do they fear any kind of " vibrant" challenge?
Very strong words... I'm emailing this post to my dad, and my sis... They would agree equally strongly with what you've written!
Any sort of descrimination, acts of violence in the name of any religion is something which I would not support...
everything.......
this is a comment by just reading the tittle, will read the post and comment again.... :)
IHM...a very good post and i dont think this is too strong at all...this is the reality...while growing up we never really bothered about caste, religion and stuff like that.
Thanks to the likes of BJP we now do.
I heard a small child comment that she wouldnt read about the sikh gurus cause woh toh sardaro ke bhagwan hai...it broke my heart. I still remember my amar chitra kathas depicting the lives of holy men of all religions.
Your Words hit harder in many areas, specially those truths abt the riots and killing of innocent souls for various reasons. I am nt a great supporter of any part nor i am into any particular belief.We r not living in Hitlers era to hav holocaust, bt then other than small reactions here and there, have we really done anything? its really something to look more deeper into. I would love to hav a party where everyone is given equal importance as humans rather than going by some agendas. But i havnt seen that in BJP,congress nor Communist party. When party and ideologies are given more importance than people, its natural ppl loose trust in politiciens, though there r ppl who blindly vote.. A clean up is really necessary, bt the qstn is who will strt it.Bt who wil be devil's advocate?
JP Joshi ji...
"Thank you for this passionate appeal to our higher selves"
So well put!!!
Smitha,
Can I give you a few examples please?
People essentially are looking for good leaders. By good I mean, with an education, upbringing, experience & pedigree that will hopefully translate into better governance & performance for our country. That is why you see people like Dr. Singh as PM, Chidambaram as FM. That is why there is talk of Shashi Tharoor joining the Congress. That is why you have young leaders like Sachin Pilot, Jo Scindia, Mil Deora & Rahul Gandhi. If the Gandhi surname is a guarantee of a certain pedigree, one that inspires confidence, what is wrong with it? The Gandhi clan is deliberately being targeted for petty political gains. A move that has backfired in the past. They've given much to the country & one can assume that they have the best interests of the country flowing in their veins, can't one?
Krishna...
:-) There we go again, indeed! As usual, I have a selective & unsubstantiated response from you.
May I ask WHY you don't respond to certain points & respond to others without proof? What makes you do this?? Allow me to illustrate:
1. You decided to avoid responding to point # 1. Did I give too much logic for you?
2. Ah...! You meant "Economy" instead of "Innovation"...?
You mention bankruptcy. Where is your proof? Are you forgetting Sam Pitroda & telecom reforms? Are you forgetting that the giant Reliance (that offered employment & higher salaries to thousands) was a product of the Congress, pre-lib era?
You seem to ignore ISRO & HAL. On purpose?
Then you make a few tall claims without any proof.
Then instead of giving the Congress credit for starting these gems of India, you run down innovation at the IIT's. Again without any proof/link!
Then you start another argument saying that the UPA is diluting their brand equity. We were dismantling your empty claim that the Congress' stifled innovation for 40 years. We'll come to the second baseless allegation, once we've laid to rest the first set of baseless allegations. OK?
(You think we have nothing better to do? You bjp types keep making baseless allegation after lie after propaganda & we must keep confronting you for the truth? Someone should file defamation suits against you types!! It's just that our types are trying to build a nation & therefore have to ignore the pettiness)
3. Nationalization v/s Liberalization: (I think I know why we get into such debates... your knowledge is very very limited & I find it frustrating arguing with someone who knows so little!!!) If you veer to any one side too much, you risk being called extremist/leftist/rightist. Moderate is the keyword. Right from Gandhiji's time. Another word for you that even the Cosmos strongly recommends is "Balance"!
THAT is the point that both Yaamyn & I were trying to get you to understand.
Dr. Singh (& Chidambaram) are not capitalism extremists. WHY don't you read their pages on Wiki??? You'll learn that they are both economists with a socialist bent. They just don't lean either left or right! Just what we need! Moderation!
You don't have to believe in one or the other. You can blend both to make something better!!! That is a concept that you will hopefully understand one day!
Krishna, Krishna, Krishna.....
- You're on a public forum, one that I've flooded with links to Yaamyn's post!
- It would help if you at least read what you'd written before making the opposite claim here! It doesn't do much for your credibility...!
- You DID bring up the GQ! Go to this comment of yours here & check it out for yourself.
I've had enough of this debating with a schoolboy. If your loyalty is towards the country & not towards the bjp/sangh, I trust you will use your free time to garner more & more unbiased information & come to your own conclusions, not those beamed up by the parry-war.
brilliant post ihm, think it is your best ever... strong and passionate and the fear for our kids is so very real...it's just grown and I'm afraid that it is growing...
We really have to choose between the fire and the frying pan and I hate both of them!
Awesome post. Nothing more to post. Agree with everything you said out there. Only when perpetrators of the heinous crimes committed during the Anti Sikh riots, the killing fields of Gujarat, the riots in Bombay courtesy Advani and Shiv Sena, the killing of people protesting their lands being taken away in Singur by the Commies.
A lot of mass murderers out there who need to be brought to justice. Manmohan Singh is pathetic, spineless...maybe...no doubting that. But at least he doesnt have blood of innocent people on his hands like Advani or Modi. That one point is enough for both Advani and Modi to be sent to the gallows.
:( Where did my comment go **sob sob** Blogspot is annoying me to hell these days..90% of my comments on blogspot spaces are not submitted...grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
IHM...Salute to you for those bold and blunt truths..Well,it was more of informative post to me..
I too don't like Congress,but BJP is more evil.
I have nothing to say IHM. I am speechless. Of course I agree with you! Even without having t go through your experience of fear it is possible to understand the scary scenario. "Those who have any respect for their religion or God do not USE it to kill innocent citizens." Period.
Hi IHM,you've been tagged here http://deeps-speakingup.blogspot.com/2008/12/yet-another-tag.html.
No hurries,do it at leisure if you like it
Thanks:)
Nimmy,
Any reasons for not liking the Congress?
Let us try to spot another riot Sign this petition to postpone proposed Orissa bandh to be held on Christmas day
http://www.petitiononline.com/advaniji/petition.html
@ 1conoclast
1. /// May I ask WHY you don't respond to certain points & respond to others without proof? What makes you do this??
Isn't it obvious? This "schoolboy" is getting tired of debating with a socialist.
2. Yes, I brought up the GQ on Yaamyn's, and I said I was wrong. It isn't the GQ, it's the NHDP I should have brought up. You have not rebutted my point about the NHDP, so its obvious that you accept that the Congress has failed in highway development as far as NHDP is concerned. Right?
3. /// You mention bankruptcy. Where is your proof?
LOL! 1conoclast, you really didn't know we were almost bankrupt in 1991? We went with a begging bowl before the foreign powers in 1991, and they said that unless we physically transfer our gold reserves to them, they won't lend the money. That's when economic liberalisation started. Your ignorance astounds me, just like my so-called ignorance astounds you. Nehruvian socialism has failed, it pushed us to the brink. Accept it.
You want links to prove this? Just google it. It's all over the internet.
4. /// You're on a public forum, one that I've flooded with links to Yaamyn's post!
And so have I, on this post. It's obvious you don't check them out. You dismiss them as "those beamed up by the parry-war".
5. /// Then instead of giving the Congress credit for starting these gems of India, you run down innovation at the IIT's. Again without any proof/link!
The burden of proof is on you. I say the IITs suck in innovation. They are not world-class, as most people would like to project. I say the IITs hardly produce enough innovations which can be patented. I say the post-graduate programmes in IIT (where most of the research happens) suck. Please provide proof to the contrary. I have a link for you, though: http://www.shaarique.com/research-in-a-iit/
6. /// Then you start another argument saying that the UPA is diluting their brand equity.
Shucks. Don't you know how new IITs are being started without proper infrastructure in place? Don't you know that most of these new IITs don't even have a campus and faculty of their own? Don't you know that even existing IITs are being stretched to their limit to accommodate the extra students coming in because of the reservations your beloved UPA Govt thrust on these institutes? Apparently, you don't.
7. ///
Dr. Singh (& Chidambaram) are not capitalism extremists.
Wow. What a term! You sound like Arundhati Roy. Both had a socialist bend, yes. And that's why I don't like them much. Socialism sucks. But in the current UPA govt, they have tried to liberalise the Indian economy even more, they have tried to increase the FDI limit in sectors like insurance and other sectors. Capital extremism, don't you think? If it weren't for the Left parties, they may actually have succeeded, and my respect for them would have increased a lot. I can give you links, but I have decided that it's a waste of effort. You won't read them anyway.
I wanted this comment but could not get the net connection work...if it's already there, IHM, please delete it..............
I M LUCKY THAT I M BORN IN INDIA.. I M LUCKY THAT I M BORN AS A MUSLIM IN A HINDU MAJORITY COUNTRY, I M LUCKY I WAS NOT BORN IN SAUDI ARABIA…AFGANISTAN OR PAKISATAN AND SUCH COUNTRIES. OTHERWISE I WNT HAVE THE CHANCE TO FEEL PROUD OF INHERITING A PART OF A GREATEST CIVILIZATION. I THANK ALLAH FOR MAKING ME OF WHAT I M. I have friend called Kaushik, I have friend called Gautam, Raja, Rangs, Tuts, Debs etc etc.... where I can discuss/criticize/make-fun of religions.
The BJP and it's parts are largely successful of creating the crack between mutual respect, belief, luv, concern...but thanks god; this is not that widespread. There are still ppl like you...there are still a large number of comments in your blog which makes me optimistic. One more note abt BJP- I think a Bajpayeeji type of leader is more dangerous than Mr Advani. Advani is atleast known as a hardliner (though he tried to make an image by praising Jinna); it's the so called "statesman" who justified Gujarat genocide by saying "Kise ne suru kiya?" ( I heard that in radio).
Having said this I also must say - the congress is also to take the blames as their leaders are equally involved in innumerable riots in post-independent India. Perhaps more than BJP. But most of the riots are not because of congress policy but more due to its greedy/power hungry leaders.
I only can hope, the BJP and family will not be successful in poisoning our common sense. OUR – means, Indian’s (Hindu, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians etc). BJP may come to power someday, but still, it will fail to poison the minds; atleast that’s what I see from the neighborhood I m familiar with.
But I will also add, we get the leaders we vote for. The only reason the lunatic right gets the way it does is because people buy into its Kool aid.
@Indian :)
@Ritu Yes, in my kids school also the same story, the girls were advised not to wear sleeveless as it is against our culture, they were not allowed to sit together, I too moved them both out. I even spoke to the Principal, like they have to go out into the world, and I would not like them to grow up segregated like this.
@ Charakan Yes, I hope so too.
@@lankrita I wish all this was untrue and they were out to unite us all and protect ALL our interests and take the country to the prosperity.Sigh.
@Spontaneous Mini //Looking for votes where??
-jobless youth getting violent by the seconds, orphan babies, hungry stomaches, handicaps, victims of terror attacks, depressed lone old one, crematoriums, burials grounds?? where??// Sums up my angst....
@Ajit Thanks :) I think anybody who wants peace and non violence will condemn those who preach it. You may like to please support this plea to postpone Orissa Bandh on Christmas Day.
@Krishna Aradhi Will that not be like choosing RICHES over LIVES?
Highways at what price Naive Indian?
Couldn't we have our highways without killing some of us?
@ Aneela It does reek of " biological determinism", because that's what it is. Or else why would you blame/punish a baby or little children?
Vibrant challenges and new younger leaders are what we need.
@Pixie Thanks, and I wouldn't either EVER.
@Monika LOL :) Yes, The ideology is wrong. And no matter how one justifies it or disguises it, the fact is that violence and lawlessness just cannot be right.
Nice post..Well i am not a expert in politics etc..but i feel political parties have conveniently diverted the attention of public from core issues of development...
If we start voting based on the performance of govt, these issues will no longer gain importance...
One main issue is corruption corruption and corruption.
when one of the client told the IT officer my books are clean, indirectly meaning dont expect anything...officer replied, did i ask you to keep the books clean..irrespective of you being clean or not, give my share...hmm
Great writing..I was so engrossed
@ Pinku We all read Amar Chitra Kathas and learnt about all religions and the thought of any god not being ours just didn't occur to us... I see so many of us are still the same. Others would do well to remember, "Those who live by the sword shall die by it"
@ Devil Incarnate //When party and ideologies are given more importance than people, its natural ppl loose trust in politiciens, though there r ppl who blindly vote.. A clean up is really necessary, bt the qstn is who will start it.But who will be devil's advocate?//
Sad yes, but each one us can be the Devil's Advocate, and we have the power of the vote. We must make sure we vote for the right reasons, those reasons should have no place for hate, because where there is hate, there can be no progress or real prosperity.
@ Imp's Mom Thank You, it is so good to see there are people who feel the same way. This gives me a hope that eventually we will see an end to this horrible, unnecessary violence.
I hope we see, and we choose newer faces in the coming elections. Please support this plea to postpone Orissa Bandh on Christmas Day.
@Philip //But at least he doesnt have blood of innocent people on his hands ... // is a big reason to like him.
In fact I find he has been extremely sensible during these attacks, he did not foolishly talk of war and attacks, instead he is still trying Diplomatic Squeeze. With two Nuclear powers here, I am glad we have someone with some grey matter sitting in the PM's seat.
IHM...
Why are we sending petitions to advani?
Can we not do what I recommend in my latest post?
Also agree with you that unnecessary rhetoric around war is premature & the domain of the rightists. You may want to read this from Annie & bhupinder's comment on it!
On our PM, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar had something to say about Leaders. He says that leaders should have Truthfulness, Equanimity, Farsightedness as attributes. He advocated Gandhiji's peaceful protest, while quoting from the Bhagwad Gita.
Dr. Singh has demonstrated all three of the attributes mentioned above, namely Truthfulness, Equanimity & Farsightedness!
Now one can safely say that his being our leader was ordained by Divinity!
No wonder he's called a political saint!
@Nimmy :) Thank You! We are the voices of sanity in these mad times!
@Shail - Yes, we just can't allow violence and cruelty in any name, with any excuse. Thank You!
@Deeps Will do it, asap!
@Charakan Linked it to two of my posts. This is a brilliant effort.
@Z@kir - Brilliantly written. YES.I agree with every word here. Of course you can see from the comments here that there are a lot of us who want to live peacefully, together. We are proud of our diversity. And we will not start hating and I believe in the end peace will always win. Thanks for this heart warming comment.
@Sunder The biggest core issue is BEING ALIVE, and safe in your own country. Once violence is controlled, we can think of development.
@George Andrews Moolekary - Thanks :) Please support this plea to postpone Orissa Bandh on Christmas Day.
@1conoclast There is no harm in hoping. Advani has the power to stop this Christmas Day Orissa Bandh, I hope he does. Please support this plea to postpone Orissa Bandh on Christmas Day.
You ask for too much IHM...
It's beneath me to speak to the likes of advani. But I guess if we have to move forward as one, peacefully, then we must focus on the cause as it's more important than the person. Hopefully he'll get the importance he craves & do something. Hopefully...
@ All those who took potshots against Advani
The bandh has been called off: http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/20/stories/2008122055941500.htm
Now, how about putting in a good word or two about him? I am sure that won't be a problem.
@Krishna Aradhi Withdrawing of this threat is not a sign of good will Krishna Aradhi. They have realised it exposes them in their true colours and no Hindu (their vote bank) will approve of this sort of clear cut bullying. I hope we don't see anymore of such displays of muscle, tell me how are they better than Raj Thakre, who you are so quick to condemn? But, yes, for now, it is definitely a relief :)
IHM,
You amuse me. You frequently try to draw an equivalence between Raj Thackeray's anti-North Indian campaign and proselytisation by Christian missionaries. It is like comparing apples to oranges. This is an attempt at over-simplification of the scourge called proselytisation. If it makes any difference to you, even Mahatma Gandhi spoke out strongly against conversions. This issue is not as black-and-white as you think it is. It is quite clear that you have no idea of the scale at which these missionaries are operating. Again, before you put words into my mouth, let me tell you that I do not support violence. I just wish that you could recognise that proselytisation is a serious problem today.
One more thing I find amusing is the way you first heckled everyone to sign that petition to Advani, and when Advani did force the VHP to call off the bandh (not due to that petition, of course), you try to brush it off as nothing but vote-bank politics.
Okay Krishna Aradhi, let me answer point by point,
You say - //You amuse me.//
Answer - Irrelevant.
You say - //You frequently try to draw an equivalence between Raj Thackeray's anti-North Indian campaign and proselytisation by Christian missionaries.//
Answer - NO Naive Indian. I compared violence against innocent North Indians in Maharashtra with violence against innocent Christians in Orissa. Violence against some citizens (Hindus, including you and me) is wrong but violence against some other citizens, poor, helpless and Christians is wrong?
Now that I have repeated what I said, DO YOU THINK THIS IS JUST and fair and Democratic?
I did not, cannot, compare Christian Missionaries proselytism to Raj Thakre's North Indian campaign.
You say - //It is like comparing apples to oranges.//
Answer - Both fruit, rich in vitamins and minerals... but what has this got to do with violence against Christian citizens in Orissa?
You say - //This is an attempt at over-simplification of the scourge called proselytisation.//
Answer - Krishna Aradhi, you mean violence against some citizens would be justifiable if I understood the 'scourge of proselytisation'?
You really believe that violence can be justified under certain circumstances?
You are repeating what the commenter in Double Standards said, if this comment had not come in your name, I would have thought it's his.
You say - //If it makes any difference to you, even Mahatma Gandhi spoke out strongly against conversions.//
My Answer - Given a choice between conversion or burning them alive, I assure you Gandhi would have chosen to let them live. Remember, he asked a Hindu rioter, who regretted killing a Muslim child’s entire family, to raise the child as his own, but as a Muslim? That was the way Gandhi thought. It is sad that his name is being misused these days to propagate exactly the opposite of what he strongly believed in.
You say - //This issue is not as black-and-white as you think it is. It is quite clear that you have no idea of the scale at which these missionaries are operating.//
Answer - So Krishna we control the scale by burning them and their homes, raping their nuns and threatening them by bandhs on their festivals?
You say - //Again, before you put words into my mouth, let me tell you that I do not support violence.//
Answer - I should really hope so, because your comment made me suspect you are trying justify violence against Christians because you are horrified by 'the scourge called proselytisation.'
You say - //I just wish that you could recognise that proselytisation is a serious problem today.//
Answer - ... BUT even if I recognised this as a problem I assure you I would NEVER talk about 'the scourge called proselytisation' while defending any kind of violence against any Indian citizens, You seem to forget you have no extra rights, they are your equal in every way, even if they are not the vote bank of BJP today, even if they are poor today. Any atrocity against any citizen in this country is equally wrong.
You say - //One more thing I find amusing is the way you first heckled everyone to sign that petition to Advani, and when Advani did force the VHP to call off the bandh (not due to that petition, of course), you try to brush it off as nothing but vote-bank politics.//
My answer - You mean this was not vote politics? This was Advani's conscience calling him to do the right, just, fair, Democratic, lawful thing?
Extremely unlikely...
IHM,
After reading your comment, I can say that you are against violence against innocents. Fine, me too. I guess I have a major problem articulating my point clearly. Heh. Anyways, you also accept that proselytisation is a problem. Right?
I, for one, accept that proselytisation is a problem, and I want some political parties to speak up against it. Not using violence, of course, but through political dialogue. Thus far, I have not seen anyone do that except the BJP. Yes, it has botched up frequently. Its sister organisations frequently indulge in violence. That's stupid. The more they indulge in violence, the more people will distance themselves from their cause. Their cause is just, but the methods they are using to achieve it are wrong. Violence is useless, and it needs to be stopped.
So, when Advani tries to change the way things are going, by calling off a bandh on Christmas day, I feel better. Sure, its politics. Your beloved Congress also plays its own brand of communal politics. That's why they are called politicians. But doesn't this look like a step in the right direction to you, however small? While I see a lot of posts from you blasting the right-wing, I haven't seen one post from you blasting proselytisation. Should I expect one in the near future? Or am I hoping for too much?
@ Krishna Aradhi You are hoping for too much.
Because,
pros·e·ly·tize (prs-l-tz)
v. pros·e·ly·tized, pros·e·ly·tiz·ing, pros·e·ly·tiz·es
v.intr.
1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.
v.tr.
To convert (a person) from one belief, doctrine, cause, or faith to another.
Now what could I possibly object to here?
I think the best way to put an end to all 'proselytisation' is to OFFER TO CONVERT ALL DALITS TO BRAHMINS. And still let this be their choice. You see we are living in a DEMOCRACY. We are not talking about SLAVES here, gone are those days when upper castes could decide the fate of the dalits. Today, thanks to Gandhi and Ambedkar, they are EQUAL to all he rest of the Indians. We are talking about other citizens, who may not have taken birth in a rich family or in an urban area, but they are still EQUAL to us, WE HAVE NO BUSINESS to treat them like retards (hate to use the word but it conveys what I mean very well).
We think we are very smart and we can decide which faith is best for them? We cannot.
You think they convert for money? That's a choice they have, they are not asking you to convert.
The very basis of objection to conversion lies in the fact that you believe they are fools and and you have (an upper caste's/brahmin's)right to take decisions for these inferior beings.
This is not Drona's time where an upper caste Dronacharya could bully an Eklavya into cutting off his thumb, so wake up to the truth that any superiority by birth is only in the mind of the sick.
In a Democracy we do not have a right to force people to live their lives our way.
Maybe I should do a post on this one V..err Krishna Aradhi.
Mavin
We are in a democracy and please remember 37% - 40% of the vote is in favour of BJP.
# Quite possible. Proves nothing.
So go ahead and rave and rant and question the wisdom of all who have supported BJP. You may not agree with their philosophy but they do strike a chord and have a large support base.
# Reminds me of how Lalu Yadav struck a chord with Bihar voters for how many years? With what kind of results?
Things are mostly never as they seem.
# BUT IT'S OBVIOUS THAT BJP SUPPORTERS ARE ABLE TO SEE THESE THINGS THE WAY THEY NEVER SEEM :) Special supernatural powers?
People react to what they see and ignore what they have not or what they do not know.
# Is there any other way to react? Why and how would someone react to what they do not know?
Since, we live in a democracy this also passes with bouquets and brickbats.
#True.
It is important to remember that in a democracy, elections will determine whether any party has a future or is doomed to oblivion.
# True.
@Krishna Aradhi [Just trying out some HTML :)]
-IHM, If only things were as rosy as the dictionary definition shows it to be. Heh. It's a pretty detailed report, so it will take some time to finish reading.
I noticed you once again ignored my suggestion to tackle the scourge of casteism and offer to reconvert them to Brahmins? I went though your link which indicates that President Bush is paying Missionaries to convert Indian Hindus to Christianity. Does it really bother you V.. err Krishna Aradhi? You just want better STATISTICS and NUMBERS for Hinduism? You think they are no more than consumers/voters? EVEN THEN you must make them want to
stay Hindus.
Fight to protect them from violence. Put HUMANITY way, way above your religion.
Fight to provide them good, ENGLISH MEDIUM education that you got yourself.
Stop treating them like they are inferior to you, with lesser rights to life, education, peace and religion - which is what you do when you defend violence against them.
Offer to convert them to Brahmins, when you need them to save your religion.
And always keep in mind,
BHUKHE BHAJAN NA HOYE RE GOPALA, JE DHARI TERI KANTHI AUR MALA.
-Proselytisation is putting it lightly. Christian proselytisation is more like a planned military invasion.
NEVER treat them like numbers & statistics, they are each one of them, REAL people, as equal as you and I.
Will I feel lost if I am surrounded by non-Hindus?
I will feel lost if I am surrounded by forced, name-sake Hindus and News or sights of violence.
Of course, I am sure you won't be convinced. The right wing is always wrong.
Fundamentalism is always wrong. I am sure you have seen that.
And I noticed you once again ignored my suggestion to tackle the scourge of casteism and offer to reconvert them to Brahmins?
IHM,
Stop railing against the caste system. Stop talking like the egalitarian western elite. Don't feed me the very theories those Western imperialists used to try and break India, but could not.
Sure, there are many flaws in the caste system. But casteism is prevalent all around the world, in some form or the other. The Indian caste system was all about efficient division of labour. It was not about superiority or inferiority. The caste system is one of the reasons why Indian civilisation has endured through the centuries (even millennia), and continues to do so. It's the reason why those Christian evangelists and Islamic invaders had to scale down their ambitions in India.
The debate around the caste system is highly complex. I, therefore, highly recommend you check this out: http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Caste_System.htm
There is a wealth of information and quotes there. It should clear your misunderstandings of the caste system. The website I have linked to above is not affiliated to any religious or political organisation.
Now, coming to conversions. After a Dalit converts to Christianity, what is he called? A Dalit Christian. I am sure you know that. So, how has converting to Christianity helped the Dalit? He is still a lower caste person, isn't he?
Besides, however flawed our reservation system may be, it has helped in its own way to uplift the Dalits. I wonder why any Dalit would want to become a Brahmin when he can enjoy the reservations he is being offered for being a Dalit. Soon, being a Brahmin is going to be a curse.
A few more links (Francois Gautier):
CHRISTIAN CONVERSIONS AND LOGIC: http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/Newspaper/chris.html
Who are the real Dalits of India?: http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/Newspaper/dalits.html
CHRISTIAN PERSECUTIONS: THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN: http://www.francoisgautier.com/Written%20Material/Newspaper/karnatak.html
I would say that its not only BJP but any political party would stoop to such low levels to gain votes. Yes, I agree completely with you when you say that I don't love Congress but I hate BJP more.
Having said that, I am ashamed that I am a part of a nation where there is not a single party whose hands is not stained with the blood of its citizens.
I have stayed out of this one so far . I just have one thing to say . You should write about what is wrong with the Congress as well . I KNOW that the BJP is not made up of angels but neither are the Congress . To some one appeals more , to some the other . But both should be scrutinised objectively , to be fair . And just one more thing , wrt the conversion of Dalits to Brahimns . Why not abolish casteism completely and leave one less reason for proselytization ?
@Amit Yes it is so sad - I guess we can help change this to some extent.
What I dislike the most is Fundamentalism, (resulting in hate campaigns) which is the reason for hating BJP more. Some moderation is required for peace and harmony so Congress, which at least doesn't preach hatred ... so is less dangerous, and hated less.
@Kislay The only way to ABOLISH casteism is to reconvert only to BRAHMINS.
What's wrong with this idea? Why is it so unacceptable? Do you suspect VHP/BD will never allow this because they don't think dalits deserve the honor?
I don't like their Fundamentalism - they remind me too much of Taliban (amongst other things).
Might do a post on Congress too ... or why I would rather have them :)
IHM, I think in some sense both national parties suck. The only reason why they are still 'national' is because they pick up seats here and there in different states. I can tell you that the BJP has succeeded in grooming its leaders better, they were re-elected in Gujarat, MP and Chhattisgarh, and are creating a strong hols across the central band of the country. Like them or not, they are probably here to stay.
The Congress is really losing the plot as far as I am concerned. The BJP has established leaders in many states, that can also be future PM candidates. Tell me, in which state does Rahul Gandhi have an appeal ? Why is he at the top of the party hierarchy ?
As you might have ascertained from my posts and comments, I am no right winger, but the BJP today is in a stronger position than the Congress.
@ Vikram Yes it is possible ...
This post is not about who might win or who is stronger, it is about what's wrong with them. Namely their Violent Fundamentalism.
Only thing Congress does better than them is they do not incite violent hatred. For me that is a matter of life and death. So I hate them less :)
IHM, Congrats for your point to point rebuttal of Krishna Aradhi.You had some great points.
The problem with Hinduism is that it needs a big reformist movement, a movement like that of Raja Ram Mohan Roy and Gandhiji.Such a movement should be able to make each Hindu equal to Brahmins. You cant expect such a movement from R.S.S as its ideology is based on hate-mongering and not reformist.If this void is not filled soon conversions will only increase.
I think we should appreciate and thank Mr Advani for calling off the bandh,there by preventing/postponing more churches getting burned and more nuns getting raped.Also we should appreciate our Democracy and power of electorate, may be the real reason for Naveen Patnaik's strong stand against the Bandh and Advani's retraction.
Vikram, my feeling is Indians usually do not vote for leaders but for or against the politics of political Parties.That is why Indira Gandhi's[a strong leader] Congress lost in 1977 and another charismatic leader like Vajpayee's NDA lost in 2004. BJP will never get more than 200 seats in Lok Sabha on their own because it is basically an upper caste Hindu Party.That is both their strength and handicap.Allies may help to reach the halfway mark but only just.BJP's Allies will always remain uneasy about Hindutva.Congress do not have such handicap and may be able to build a stronger coalition Government.
Outstanding essay!! I've been away from my computer lately, so just read this. I hope all of you don't mind an outsider, like me, posting about these deeply "Indian" issues. But actually, they are ALL OUR issues, as world citizens. I think IHM should run for office. Larry in Boston
IHM,
I posted a comment here yesterday afternoon. It has not yet appeared. Did you miss it?
@Charakan Thanks. I really appreciate your kind words.
I totally agree that we need Reformist Movements. And all Hindus will be able to be EQUAL Hindus ONLY if Dalits (and any others) are offered the option of being equal to Brahmans, by converting to BRAHMANS. The present system, as another blogger puts it,'reeks of " biological determinism"' They should switch from cow's urine to formal thread ceremony, if they really care.
@Larry Thank You :) I totally agree. We are all World citizens and these are all OUR ISSUES :) You saw how seriously we discussed Obama!!
@Krishna Aradhi Will go through your links. Had a very busy day yesterday. Might do a post on this issue, as you suggested.
On the other hand, let me at least answer some points here,
1. Stop railing against the caste system.
Why?
2.Stop talking like the egalitarian western elite
I double checked the meaning here,
egalitarian, Adjective, expressing or supporting the idea that all people should be equal
Noun, a person who believes that all people should be equal [French égal equal]
What could possibly be wrong with wanting equality for all? I was hoping you would deny any belief in supremacy of caste or Brahmins. DO you really expect me to take this comment seriously?
3. Don't feed me the very theories those Western imperialists used to try and break India, but could not.
Theories? Which Western Imperialists? Could you elaborate?
4.Sure, there are many flaws in the caste system
You agree?
5.But casteism is prevalent all around the world, in some form or the other.
I hope that is not your justification for letting it 'be prevalent' in India!?
6.The Indian caste system was all about efficient division of labour.
It was, but then caste was not biologically determined. But wasn't that very long ago? What about today?
7.It was not about superiority or inferiority.
BUT TODAY IT IS ONLY ABOUT SUPERIORITY AND INFERIORITY. I have already discussed this here in response to ..err another blogger's comment, here.
8.The caste system is one of the reasons why Indian civilisation has endured through the centuries (even millennia), and continues to do so.
Now wait a minute. Are you now supporting and defending the caste system?
9.It's the reason why those Christian evangelists and Islamic invaders had to scale down their ambitions in India.
Explain.
10.The debate around the caste system is highly complex. I, therefore, highly recommend you check this out (a link I refuse to advertise)
I will do a post on this system.
But, DO you really expect me to take this comment seriously, Krishna Aradhi?
IHM,
Yes, as a whole, you could take my comment seriously. There is a howler in there, of course. Let me correct it.
/// Stop railing against the caste system.
My mistake. You should rail against the caste system, in its current form. In the past, it has helped us, as will be amply clear when you check out the link I provided.
And no, I don't believe I am superior to anyone in any way. I only meant that the caste system has helped in the past. Almost all the other points will explain themselves, again, when you check out the link.
You are silent on the point I made against conversions, which brings me to my following complaint.
This is the second comment of mine, in this very post, which you have not published. Instead, you pick up some points from it and rebut them. In my comments, there are more points and links which help my argument. The links are not just for your perusal, but also for the perusal of your esteemed readers. It is unfortunate that some of them have to comment on my arguments without reading them in their totality.
I have no problem if you prove me wrong on every single point I make. I will accept my mistakes. I will learn from every mistake pointed out to me. And I will sportingly accept every jibe directed at me. But this is only possible in a more democratic environment where even my comments are published in full, uncensored.
If that is not the case, I quit. I will not further participate in this debate, or on this blog. IHM, I know this is your blog, and you have the right to decide which comments appear, and which do not. But this is unacceptable to me. The debate going on here is a farce, at best.
If anyone wishes to further engage in a debate with me on the issue of the caste system and Hinduism, please get in touch with me at krisblogs[at]gmail[dot]com. I am always game for a healthy debate.
"The only way to ABOLISH casteism is to reconvert only to BRAHMINS.What's wrong with this idea? Why is it so unacceptable? Do you suspect VHP/BD will never allow this because they don't think dalits deserve the honor? "
Casteism should be abolished in totality . Because it is the scourge of Hinduism in today's context . And I have no clue about VHP/BD , but the RSS is against casteism .
IHM Obviously a great Post. Does religion or caste even matter today?
@ Kislay Casteism is too deeply seeped into our psyche if we really wish to make all Hindus equal then we must make this attempt to make caste meaningless. If anybody can convert to Brahmins, it does not anymore remain such a big deal to be born into a Brahmin family.
Being against casteism only when it comes to RESERVATIONS is not truly being against it.
The scourge can only be removed when we caste ceases to be important to an average Hindu. I believe our Cosmopolitan culture goes a long way in doing that, but we need more reforms.
@Chirag No it doesn't. And shouldn't :)
If the RSS is truly against casteism, why don't they promote the reform initiated by the Arya Samaj?
No castes, no idol worship, no astrological mahurats, etc. etc..
why should religion continue to play such an important role when it is the leading cause of mis-understanding between communities and nations?
Of what purpose is religion when it cannot foster friendship and amity between different people?
Why are we still trying to hang on to what some person or a group said some centuries ago?
Are we blind to be unable to see the futility of a code that has over stayed its welcome.
Why are wee so scared of abandoning our stupid past populated by hate, mistrust, ill will and making something new.
Dead skin needs to be shed. A new world with an old mind - IMPOSSIBLE
// Kislay Casteism is too deeply seeped into our psyche if we really wish to make all Hindus equal then we must make this attempt to make caste meaningless.//
Agreed . One just needs to go to an Indian village to find out that .
//If anybody can convert to Brahmins, it does not anymore remain such a big deal to be born into a Brahmin family.
I don't see the logic of converting to a caste . That would not be abolishing the system . And I must say that this initiative to abolish the caste-system must come from the upper-castes .
// The scourge can only be removed when we caste ceases to be important to an average Hindu. I believe our Cosmopolitan culture goes a long way in doing that, but we need more reforms.//
As somebody suggested , we need a massive reformist movement , nation wide .
I want this system to cease because it is no longer what it was centuries ago . Too rigid to be fair to everyone .
Krishna,
On advani:
1. You keep saying that you're not a right-winger, that you won't vote for the bjp, yet you clamour for advani appreciation...? I don't quite get it...
2. I will appreciate advani if you publicly acknowledge Dr. Manmohan Singh's list of achievements. Fair?
:-)
And oh... this one!
@Kislay Agree with all except this one.
//If anybody can convert to Brahmins, it does not anymore remain such a big deal to be born into a Brahmin family.
I don't see the logic of converting to a caste.
So we continue to force-reconvet dalits to dalits? What gives us the right to decide their fate
That would not be abolishing the system.
Abolishing the system would take many centuries. This reform can benefit this generation, and there's absolutely nothing to loose, a lot of goodwill and equality to gain.
Castes are an integral part of our system, it will be easier to simplify the system and make it not biological but choice, most specially for reconverts.
And I must say that this initiative to abolish the caste-system must come from the upper-castes .
I disagree Kislay. Brahmins and upper castes should STOP being the decision makers for the dalits.
Hmm .. i saw this blog for the first time and kept on reading till i came to this particular article .. and saw so many comments so moved on to reading comments... lot of correct arguments and lot of playing with words ..
While i hardly take any interest and the games our parties political parties play .. have not got a chance to vote yet (just to clarify after reading all this i think if i ever vote i might go for BJP .. the same lesser evil applies for me) .. but lot of these arguments seem to be because of respective personal choices .. and presentation of facts and hiding of facts as well .. While it is appalling and frustrating the way BJP tries to impose itself on hindus i do not buy to lot of strong words ..
and while i do not consider telecom to be truly started by Cong folks (it started only when villages also started getting it .. ) and just because Manmohan and Chidambaram have good college degrees they do not qualify to be the leaders .. we all tend to forget that its the PM who backs the FM .. so it was Narsimha Rao who backed(It comes from political will) Manmohan to start the wheel rolling .. and as Mr. Rao does not have correct surname for a Cong PM his achievements were downplayed ... Chidambaram is probably(and i am not too sure on this one but ) too biased and regional (i find many examples littered to believe this) to be really talked as the MAN (i just believe him to be right man right time .. but if look closely two recent economic downturns in India he was the presiding FM on both)..
Young leaders of Cong?? .. all of them are super imposed on the scene .. hardly anyone comeing through the ranks .. someone like Mayawati even if she is not the most honest politicans .. she has come through the ranks and can make you believe that if you take a plung in politics even u have a chance to reach up .. not if you see the Cong young leaders names .. they are just stamps of their families legecy .. i may be more inclined to vote for Mayawati than any of them .. I still admire the way she has moved up ..
Contract the youngies for Cong with youngies of BJP .. you do not see all son's and daughers of all BJP leaders making beelines for their family legecy .. or being super imposed ..
Economy .. i have my own doubts if Cong really made any effort on them .. you can sample economic parameters so see how the current govt has faired (or failed) on most of them .. (vs previous Govt) ...
Innovation .. its not a pipedream but takes years before your institutions start delivering on innovation .. Example look at US universities .. our uvis are still lot younger compared to them ..
Atrocities and Violence .. 1992 or Gujrat can not be explained and BJP was needed to be banned for them .. with their leaders tried in court (which unfortunately never happened) .. but Cong has done far henious crimes and walked away .. we need to condemn the brutal killing of father and two young boys .. but also should be ready to debate the conversion issue because then it will show up that in the name of conversion we are getting iligeal immigrants from Bangladesh and making them rightful citizans (check how the demographic details of some of the districts West Bengal and Assam has changed to open your eyes).. as real conversion is far less than it is shouted for .. but then we shy away from it .. as for father and son killing you need to delve deeper and read some of the recent history (around 100 yrs) of kandhmal to see that it was not against conversion but is a fight between two communities (or castes) .. which is still going on and people are still getting killed .. the killing was 'converted' as for conversion to hide the core issue .. (even a google on those communities history will show you ) ..
Now why probably i hate like Cong more than BJP .. Cong is trying to open centres for Aligarh Muslim University in different parts of country .. (read recent news items if you missed this ) and have given a budget allocation for this as well . now what beats my mind is .. why of AMU only .. is this the best unversity in our country .. is this the most professional one .. why not Centres of IISc .. or JNU .. or Delhi University .. i thought those are our best universities .. why not even BHU .. which is often compared with AMU (just because of its name) but in reality its far more professionally run and offers better education ... but then even to get funds BHU had to open a campus in the name of Rajiv Gandhi (not in the name of its founder or bhabha .. or bhatnagar who are its alumi) .. (you can get this in google) ..
what happened to NHDP ..
we had an excellant Prez in the name of Kalam (i still keep a copy of his Ignited Minds) .. now who is our Prez ... trying to open an IIT in amarawati(where is it btw and why Prez is thinking of Amrawati only) (probably will not happen thanks to Ahluwalia (a real good brain))..
Do we really believe that Nucluer Deal was hetched in last four years?? .. and do you believe in the portrayed benefits .. yes we have ended our isolation on this .. but then it will generate energy .. not sure .. Germany and NZ meet bulk of their energy requirements from 're-usuable' sources (read sunlight .. hydro .. ) .. why not we focus on doing that rathar then rooting for something which is a potential health hazard as well as would be very very costly ..
My cousins who studied in Christen schools had to read Bible regularly .. in school .. as part of their extra caricular 'encouraged' by school ..
still we get on with that as part of our lives .. we do not start shouting why are we forced to read religious books ..
Many of the hotel's in Europe keep a bible in the room and i do read them at times if i had a hard day at work .. as it still gives me sarenity at the end of a mad day away from my family .. Think of hotel's keeping a ramayana in their rooms and how quick we would brand them as extrimists .. some places of Kerala is marred with political killings for few decades now and BJP still is not a known entity in Kerala ..
Its like Sprite .. 'dikhawe pe mat jao apni akal lagao'
@Astralwicks
I am sorry I missed your comment! You have asked the kind of questions I too have in my mind all the time.
The simple fact that you are asking such questions means there is still hope that we will yet understand 'Of what purpose is religion when it cannot foster friendship and amity between different people?' All the best to us.
Well , I was not talking about the Dalits alone . Casteim has had many victims , mostly lower-castes and sometimes upper-castes . And it wouldn't be factually wrong of me if I said the upper caste Hindus have more sway in the social strata . That is why I said so . It would be the best if this cause had support from all the different classes and castes .
@Kislay Yes, you are right. If we all want change it will happen, it will happen so peacefully.
And then maybe no real change will be needed, we just won't care about caste.
anonymous...
On your first time decision to vote, a famous Shatrughan Sinha line comes to mind... "Pehli galti maaf, doosri bardasht nahi!"
IHM,
I agree with Krishna Aradhi. I will come up with a later argument where I want to assert why a right-of-center BJP is the best bet for India. I'm not advocating Advani or Modi. I myself have written a lot against them in my blog and I know they are far from ideal.
But the basis on which the BJP was formed, it is the best bet.
I will be back. :-)
Trailblazer,
I for one will look forward to that post. I had up until now assumed that you were one of the sensible folk on the blogosphere, but your recent claim has me a little confused.
The bjp is the child of the rss, right?
The rss was formed by a man inspired by savarkar, right?
savarkar proposed hindutva & advocated the 2 nation theory, right?
HOW ON EARTH can a party that has it's roots in that mindset EVER be the best bet???
I will look forward to your post. Most probably it's going to be a satire.
You can look forward to mine as well.
@1con
Not fair man . Just because he doesn't conform to your beliefs , he is no loner one of the sensible people .
@Anonymous said...
If the RSS is truly against casteism, why don't they promote the reform initiated by the Arya Samaj?
No castes, no idol worship, no astrological mahurats, etc. etc..
True, IF they were truly against caste system they would do this.
@Anonymous Beater Nice name! Welcome to this space :)
Kislay,
I like Trailblazer. I didn't say he isn't sensible anymore. I said I'm confused. Please don't do what I said here in point # 5.
You may also want to read this that was written almost a year ago!
Anonymous
sorry guys i am back and i thought of educating myself a bit .. found two few notes for you to ponder before going ahead with the rant of Shartughan Sinha ..
here is what some of 'sister concerns of BJP do... may be they are in places like mumbai go through through this link and see something that they do .. i have a first hand account of some of these schools
http://www.vidyabharati.org/Statistics.asp
/No matter what they do, their ideology remains the same. Blatant (misuse of)religion - for creating divides. Discrimination, hatred and violence. Just think Anonymous, how safe would you feel if you were a Minority in BJP rule? /
I will welcome any similar link for 'sister concerns of Cong
/The Link that makes all minorities feel they are not out to annihilate them. The link that unites not break this country on grounds of religion and caste. /
Another one ' a well known name of Rajeev Gandhi Foundation' claim to fame .. in 1991 - 92 budget the FM allocated 100cr for this foundation which is privately held with Govt Of India does not have any control .. you can read it through on the 1991-92 budget of subsequent debates.. i could get the exact link but here is the debate portion of it http://parliamentofindia.nic.in/ls/lsdeb/ls10/ses1/1301089103.html
btw i have seen enough of Shartughan Sinha movies to know most of his dialougues .. give me some facts not rants which i have seen in abundance on this discussion ..
/Anonymous Like I said, it's not that I love Congress, but that I hate BJP more. Wish there was someone better to choose. Since there isn't it will have to be the lesser evil :( /
Trailblazer
IHM,
I agree with Krishna Aradhi. I will come up with a later argument where I want to assert why a right-of-center BJP is the best bet for India. I'm not advocating Advani or Modi. I myself have written a lot against them in my blog and I know they are far from ideal.
But the basis on which the BJP was formed, it is the best bet.
I will be back. :-)
//I too have no problems with a BJP without it's ideology of hate and religious and caste bias. A government's jobs is not to protect a religion, but to protect the lives of the citizens. I would rather have a government that appeases the weaker sections than a Government that gets them killed. We have to choose between the the Devil and the Deep Sea :(
I look forward to reading your response :)
//
Yaamyn IHM, you said in a comment that a good approach to stop proselytizing is to convert all Dalits to Brahmins!
THat was mindblowingly superb!! Seriously. I'm impressed.
:-)
Good going. And thanks for the award! :-)
That's a challenge no VHP, BD will accept, they will not even consider converting an achoot, chamar, neech to a Brahman. In Hindi/Sanskrit all synonyms of Brahman imply gentlemen, decent guy, a pure soul etc and all the synonyms of Dalit (except Harijan) mean a lowly untouchable. Decent folks do not use words like bhangi, chamar, neech, chandaal, achoot, etc and other dalit synonyms even in anger.
I think you people are thinking in non metured way think of terrorism who are building terrorist all over world that is one only muslims.you may ask me what about VHP, VHP is not terror group its a group protecting Hindus from muslims....at last i'll tell that muslims should be treated as in palistin..
Read this for reference which was written in times of india in 16th jan 09.....
For Pakistani kids, ‘j’ stands for jihad, ‘b’ for bandook
Islamabad: Thousands of Pakistani schoolchildren are growing up learning that the Urdu equivalent of the letter ‘a’ stands for Allah, ‘b’ for ‘bandook’ (gun) and ‘j’ for ‘jihad’.
Though not officially prescribed for pre-schoolers, books printed by Iqra Publishers are being used in several regular schools and madrasas across Pakistan. The three examples of Allah, bandook and jihad are not the only ones which sound like a “blueprint for a religious fascist state”.
The Urdu letter for the ‘t’ sound stands for takrao (collision), ‘k’ for khunjar (dagger), ‘h’ for hijab (veil) and ‘z’ for zunoob (sins), which includes watching television, playing musical instruments and flying kites.
According to the National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks, class 5 children are expected to acknowledge and identify forces that may be working against Pakistan, make speeches on jihad and shahadat, understand Hindu-Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan, India’s evil designs about Pakistan and demonstrate by actions a belief in the fear of Allah, said a report in a magazine.
In an article titled The Saudiisation of Pakistan, renowned physicist Pervez Hoodbhoy argued that “a stern, unyielding version of Islam is replacing the kinder, gentler Islam of the sufis of Pakistan”.
“Pakistan’s self-inflicted suffering comes from an education system that, like Saudi Arabia’s system, provides an ideological foundation for violence and future jihadists,” he wrote.
“It demands that Islam be understood as a complete code of life, and creates in the mind of a school-going child a sense of siege and embattlement by stressing that Islam is under threat everywhere,” Hoodbhoy said.
Hoodbhoy was appalled at the syllabus which expects class 5 students to make speeches about jihad. “This is the basic roadmap for transmitting values and knowledge to the young. It was prepared by the curriculum wing of the federal ministry of education, government of Pakistan. It sounds like a blueprint for a religious fascist state,” he wrote.
He wrote that according to national education census, which the ministry of education released in 2006, 1.5 million students are acquiring religious education in 13,000 madrassas. Commonly quoted figures range between 18,000 and 22,000 madrassas. The number of students could be correspondingly larger.
“Free boarding and lodging, plus provision of books, is a key part of their appeal. Additionally, parents desire that their children be ‘disciplined’ and given a Islamic education. Madrassas serve this purpose, too, exceedingly well,” he concluded. AGENCIES
Hi, Homemaker. It's a very well-written article. It is only by educating, creating awareness and debating that balance can be restored.
I'm sorry but I disagree with you ..
Hindutva came nto the limelight because n the country where we hindus represent 80% of the population and still congress overturned the supreme court's judgement in shah bano case just to appease muslim community .. That was the beginning of hindutwa ..
Then our 2 lakh kashmri pundits were kicked out, killed, butchered, raped, looted from kashmir valley and not a single tom,dick and harry came for their help .. In their own country, they r refgee now .. Even after all these atrocities, not a single kashmiri pandit youth became a terrorist and planted bombs in masjids all over india .. We hindus too have feelings and sentiments but we r very tolerant ..
Then came the babri masjid .. A structure which was lying unused all these years and no one was praing namaz there and stll muslims refused that land whnere Ram - one of the prominent gods of HInduism was born .. Still no one came for the help ..
So we needed VHP, BJP even save our asses during riots .. One of my uncles in mumbai was saved by shiv sainiks during mumbai riots and I'm so thankful to bal thackrey for that .. I owe my life to him now ..
So hindutva was bound to exist in India to save our religion, culture, tradition and faith .. Otherwise history will repeat once again and we have to be ready for another partition or for another slavery ..
This is what I wrote here
http://blog.amruthaupendran.com/?p=413
I think you are missing the bigger picture. The bigger picture is how media ( including darlings like IBN, NDTV ) have become tools of the west to suppress or hype the news based on their agenda, most anti-Indian if not anti-Hindu. Here is one good example.
The Real Talibans of India
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=8106&SKIN=M
Most of what you say is true and sweeping. Even agreed. But let me also parse some of them and add some perspective.
::the jehadis want to flick girls from our religion. Flick? WTF? Does Mr. Kamat think we are pencils or erasers that some can flick and use? Sorry. No.
Yes, yes madam. Not just women. But men too. Have you heard of kidnappings? With their marauding mentality they have done it with ease in Pakistan, Bagladesh and J&K. It’s spreading elsewhere. If not terror they will be suave in achieving this. There is a history of women disappearing in these jehadi joints. Check this out http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=8108&SKIN=B
:: My religion does not preach intolerent.
Also Tolerance cannot and should not tolerate Intolerance. Per Gita inaction is NOT a choice.
:: When I read people like Kamat saying women must be protected from other faiths because we will be brainwashed and converted, it violates my sense of justice.
Madam, from your profile I see that you are a capable one. But millions are unlike you. They are too innocent to understand the dangers from Jehadis. At any cost we cannot let them become female suicide bombers.
:: Let’s make one thing clear. Attacks such as the one in Mangalore are condemnable, irrespective of the religion of the perpetrators or the motive
As you see from the link that I provided earlier you see the media condemns when it’s only Hindus doing this even when they miss the bigger picture. Recall Barkha Dutt aiding and abetting terrorism.
Most leftist and liberal bloggers make opinions that are palatable and shortsighted. So let there be bloggers who see other side of the coin too. Otherwise what’s the difference between Barkha Dutt and one sided bloggers. Let readers determine where Truth lies given all the information.
Thank you
See here
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=8108&SKIN=B
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=8106&SKIN=M
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HKPage.aspx?PageID=8098&SKIN=B
May be all this junk wont be written once our daughters and sisters get recruited by Jehadis. It's easy to equate BJP with Taliban until then falling into CONgressMEN trap! what a load of crap!
You want to know what BJP is all about Go TO JAMMU & Ask Kashmiri Pandits They can Narrate you Encyclopedia's About How They were killed by State Sposored Massacre Daughter's Raped & butchered & still kept quiet ... & BJP supported RSS organisations Helped them with Food & other security ... You want to know What BJP is all about go to " Ayodhya " & try to avail any kind of record's about The hundreds of Sadhus Peacefully Demonstrating before the Babri Demolition of which I my self was a witness.
@petalsofdoom Do you have data to back up what you're claiming or do you just want us to take your word for it? Please resubmit with GOI links & I will consider publishing your other three page comment then.
Now it is understood,why you dont like SRS
It is not the violence,you are political.
and anti BJP :-)
@Born Hindu PLEASE READ THIS POST?
I don't like violence.
I don't like SRS.
AND
Of course I don't like BJP.
Anybody who likes BJP must like their ideology?
They must think it's okay to kill equal citizens?
It's also okay to molest and pass it off an another horrendous crime - Moral Policing?
In the name of Hindutva they are handing us TALIBANISM. Can't you see?
I do not agree that BJP has an ideology of hate. It has its share of hawks. But to attribute the thinking of one MM Joshi as the BJP's ideology is wrong.
BJP used the temple issue to come into prominence. But it is myth to say communalization or terrorism started with the Rath Yatra. I agree the demolition of Babri Masjid was wrong and it should not have taken place.
Attributing every act of VHP/BD to BJP would be wrong.I don't think BJP has condoned Staines murder or the recent events in Kandhamal.Of course nothing justifies the recent violence in Kandhamal or Staines murder. In the Staines murder case the culprit has been given death penalty. The people responsible for such atrocities must be punished and the Indian law will ensure that. Regarding the question of debate, the issue of aggressive proselytization is a serious concern. It should be opposed using legal ways.Violence and intimidation is used by the both the sides and to focus on just one side would not be right.
NDA governed the nation between 98-2004. BJP has/ had governments in various states. They have provided decent governments in these cases and not those of hate.
The only blot is the Gujarat riots. I do not think the riots were a BJP initiated genocide or pogrom. The rioters must be punished and the law will do that.
Apart from that, these same accusations can be leveled against the Congress as well.
-nik
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